The Young CPA Success Show: Episode 18

Hannah and Joey are joined by Carol Bowser, Founder and Owner of Conflict Management Strategies, to discuss the vital topic of conflict resolution in the accounting industry. As a former employment lawyer turned conflict-resolution expert, Carol discusses the importance of empathy, understanding cultural norms, and the emotional aspects of conflict—while also offering practical advice on handling conflicts and feedback.

Intro (00:00:00) - Welcome to the Young CPA Success Show. If you're a young accounting professional, this podcast is your ultimate guide to navigating your early career. Join us as we share valuable insights, expert advice, and practical tips to help you kickstart your path to success and excel in the accounting industry. Let's embark on this exciting accounting journey together.

Joey (00:00:23) - Our audiences is typically young CPAs, and we've found that. You know, this is a tough profession. It's a tough industry., I learned it was tough when my parents were in it in the 80s. It's been tough ever since. And I think the future is going to be tough. And one of the things that I love thinking about, you know, in terms of navigating the office space as a young person, I've, I've kind of described myself in this way. I tend to be a full contact conflict resolution, which isn't always the best way to do it. And it's a skill that. A were not teaching particularly well. And it's a lot of stuff that's learned on the job in terms of like having good mentors and learning how to do this.

Joey (00:01:10) - And I think it's also a skill that is missing. And so that's where I'd love to start is talking with you a little bit about. How you got into this, this type of teaching and coaching and, you know, kind of start, start from there. And then we can sort of figure out how to how to apply it to accountants.

Carol (00:01:30) - Well, I ended up getting into it before I went to law school. I'm a recovering employment lawyer. And for those in the audience say, well, what's an employment lawyer? I just want to be able to distinguish that there are many, many different branches of the law and many different areas of emphasis and employment law deals with kind of the rights and responsibilities about harassment, discrimination, wage and hour, those types of things. And in, in legal circles and also in kind of human resource circles and, you know, maybe even, you know, for the folks who are working with businesses that have that are that have collective bargaining agreements in it, you know, and union and sometimes even civil service rules, we view it as, as different.

Carol (00:02:17) - And I am in Washington state, and I was licensed to practice in Washington state. And we are what's called a, an employment at will state. There's a lot of, you know, language. And whoever drafts the legislation, you know, put spins on what you call the legislation to meet their own kind of political, you know, did, I dare I say, agendas in Washington? That means that people can be fired for any reason, a good reason, a bad reason, just as long as it's not an illegal reason. And so that's one of the areas that I really focused on versus, again, businesses and organizations that are that have employees that, are covered by a collective bargaining agreement. And even within those organizations, you may have people, that are exempt from, overtime protections are required overtime,, protections. But I was just really interested in the employment relationship, and I thought it would be a great place to start. And then once I got into it, I'm like, not so much.

Carol (00:03:26) - I really like this very much. I like the idea, but I found that what I ended up talking to a lot of people with, it's like, well, this isn't necessarily illegal. It's not really something I can help you with. But so many people, it was such a drain on the organization. It was such a drain on them personally, on their families, on professionally and like, you know, one of those little that there has to be a better way. And I had taken mediation training before I went to law school. And so, I kind of got the imprint of what a, what conflict resolution and exploring what people's needs and wants are within the various structures that they are living in. And that really made me look at things a different way. So, you know, for some of your audience that, you know, maybe being a CPA isn't your first career., maybe it's you did something differently and maybe you noticed how it is that you're trying. Learning makes you look at the world and define problems differently.

Carol (00:04:25) - And that was the same for me, is I looked at the world and defined problems differently within the parameters of employment law, but beyond the parameters of employment law.

Joey (00:04:37) - That's interesting because I love this idea too. And I loved your comment about being in various stages of recovery, because my next door neighbor is a recovering employment lawyer here in, in New Mexico. So she's mentioned that at some point, too. And it's like, we.

Carol (00:04:52) - Need to go buy her a drink, go buy her a drink. It takes years to unwind from all of that so...

Joey (00:04:57) - Yah.

Joey (00:04:59) - Is there in terms of how to define conflict resolution? Is there a way to start with like the textbook definition and then maybe dive into like what we get right about it and what we get wrong about it in terms of what people really think about how it works.

Carol (00:05:15) - That's a great, you know, no one's actually ever asked me that question before., both parts of that question, is there a textbook definition and what we get right and what we get wrong? So I think when people think about conflict resolution, they think about, you know, entitlement or that bad bosses or bad colleagues, like really kind of in the, in the extreme I define conflict is that if they're kind of needs and wants that, that feel like they're in conflict or how people respond to each other, that drives a sense of disengagement or frustration or helplessness or hopelessness or anger.

Carol (00:05:58) - Because in the workplace, all of that stuff impedes everyone from doing their best at work, and it also impedes the workplace from achieving the goals. And in my world, and I think every world has, and every profession has a different way of defining it. But I think about like, well, how much time and emotional and psychological energy are spent not on doing what you are paid to do to be able to meet the, strategic goals of the organization but are spent and get derailed in kind of what people would say, like more the murky, sticky, you know, personal type of stuff., and then I think maybe what we get right is that I just want to say, like, there are so few people that actually do get it right., but what I will say is for people who stop and look at it when they say it's not just business, it's not just work, that there's a human, into that. And if someone is bringing forward something of concern, you know, if you can recognize that they are taking time to talk with you to maybe address in an, in artful way, maybe might be perceived as an aggressive way or a passive aggressive way, that they're taking the time to share with you what's important to them.

Carol (00:07:20) - And so those people who recognize that a conflict means something important is at stake. That's what they get, right? I think what we get wrong is that, more likely than not, we respond to how the message is delivered. And don't get past that. I often say that a complaint is nothing more than a request in disguise, but sometimes the disguises can be really camouflaging, and not many people can express that they feel impeded, that they're frustrated, but they may not be able to express what they want or what they need in a way that doesn't feel like an ultimatum or a threat or like, you know, you need to get back in your lane.

Hannah (00:08:00) - I know for me, you say that about the recognition is something that I've noticed that I'm better at now than I was earlier in my career, for sure. I think that has come with maturity. I love that you brought up the, this may not be your first career for me. I'm a boomerang to the industry. I started in accounting, left for a while, came back.

Hannah (00:08:21) - So the lens through which I look at conflict is a little bit different due to the nature of what I did while I was away from accounting. But I know that that recognition piece in the beginning is something that could absolutely change your career and your trajectory of your career. If you're able to identify that early on versus just kind of like being oblivious to what's going on and how you handle that and, and then how you respond. So, is there a way that you can develop that earlier in your career versus having to walk through some really hard trials of conflict to get to that point?

Carol (00:08:56) - So, I mean, I think it I go back to this old adage that, you know, anybody who says you never don't need experience to do this job, has never done this job. And I think we, you know, we approach conflict from our particular lens, from our particular experience, from the training that we have had professionally that says this is the framework that is the correct framework to be able to do.

Carol (00:09:22) - And I think also, you know, with CPA firms a little bit like law firms, that it's very much, you know, there's there is hierarchy. You have senior partners, you have managing partners. And by definition, the workplace. Base has power structure and there are power dynamics at play. And there are some people who are very aware of that, and there are some people who need to gain maybe a little bit more situational awareness, and you want to be respectful of those power dynamic power dynamics, because there's some people who said, you know, I earned my spot. I don't have to do, you know, play nicey nice anymore. And I just want to focus on this type of work and you kind of have to recognize this. And I don't want to say you have to play a game. However, you do need to kind of recognize what's going on and being able to recognize how is everybody managing those power structures without really, like feeling as though they're being bent into a pretzel and can't talk about what's important.

Carol (00:10:22) - I mean, I think that there's also lots of layers of, generational differences about work life balance, about how and when work gets done, particularly in professional capacities where you can work remote. And I'll just do a little, you know, asterisk that, a lot of the times through the pandemic and even coming back to work, the vast majority of people, even when there was an option to for some people to work remotely, they never had that option. So usually when we have options to work remote, it also means that more conflict may come up in a remote environment. And just being able to going back to power dynamics of how do those power dynamics show up based on when and how the work is done, and how much autonomy do people have in doing the work or in relating to each other? I know that was kind of a long winded answer, but I think a lot about autonomy., for a of experience of, you know, are you getting a feel of how much autonomy is tolerated within the particular culture of that firm because there may be senior partners or like, you know, I need to see people because I don't I think that throughout walking the dog and I'm not paying them to walk the dog.

Carol (00:11:44) - And I want people here because if I want to, for whatever, for whatever reason, and that may cause some conflict and resentment when people like, I can do the work perfectly well and I can do it better at home, than going into the office. So, there's a lot of stuff going on there. 

Joey (00:12:03) - Well, I think, that's something that we've been feeling within our organization as we've merged a historically remote firm with a historically and office firm is I mean, it's been about 18 months, and we're still trying to figure out exactly how to navigate the conflict of, I can't just go pop my head in your office and be like, hey, so we need to figure out, you know, the MacGuffin file or whatever, whatever it happens to be, you've got to be intentional about it. You've got to build some time in there and understand that it's just not going to be the same with this group. And that's I think that's only going to be exacerbated as we continue to move into a more flexible situation and more flexible work.

Joey (00:12:43) - And I think there's a lot of. I think back to myself and my career as I was navigating through from a small office to a company in Kansas City that I worked for that had 10,000 employees across the world. Like when you're. Yeah, when you're communicating with people over like an internal teams or like an Ichat or something like that, like. If you're not able to be able to do that, well, you're going to say something that's going to come across weird to somebody and you're going to inadvertently cause a problem.

Carol (00:13:13) - Yeah. You are. It goes and it's discoverable and it's discoverable, right? So I mean, okay, so a couple of things. What you said one, I'm stealing the term MacGuffin. I don't I don't know where I just, I love that like that's fantastic. And I think it's a certain amount of and I haven't used this term before. So, whatever it is, our conversation or the couple of cups of coffee I've had, in preparation for today is I think there's a certain amount of cultural blindness.

Carol (00:13:44) - Now, let me tell you what I, what I mean about that is that, you know, so for example, the firm that you were, that you were at, where it was like mostly in person, what I'm hearing is like, we had a way of collaborating and a way of doing things that, that that really relied on and seemed to flourish in that person to person, which is great because, you know, not to make stereotypes, but CPAs aren't known for being really people. People, you know, like not it's a.

Joey (00:14:14) - It's a valid stereotype.

Carol (00:14:16) - Okay., you just say it's a genre. It's a genre, but you transcend the genre there. Joey, and then there's the other piece of the people who were completely remote. It's like they may have cultural blindness. And, and when we talk about, well, this is just obvious. It's just common sense. Why wouldn't you do this? That's talking about their own cultural perspective. And it also may mean that we may have blinders of not recognizing it.

Carol (00:14:43) - And I think that there are certain generational things. And I'll give you a great example. So, when I was working with one group of people and they were talking about, well, how do we do collaboration and, and increase engagement, and they kept calling it telework because they were in a generation, one where they were working remotely, but they basically relied on grabbing stuff off of a central server, writing briefs, and then, and then if they needed to talk to somebody, they talked about telework. Well, that's a generational term. Most everybody would say, no, it's remote work or we're distributed team. So even the language that they used and the one person I was talking to said, which is also a little bit that I relate to, this is it says, well, if I assume that if it's really important, someone's going to pick up a phone and call me. Contrast that to a different podcast that I listened to regularly. It's the folks for

Carol (00:15:44) - I built this by Guy raz, and they talk about a lot of founders and one of the key, founders. I can't remember who it was. It might have been from Itzy or something like that, but, it was in relation to it wasn't Itzy. It was a firm out of Silicon Valley because they were reliving the time when the Silicon Valley bank, you know, was seized and almost went under. And this gentleman was saying his co-founder and partner, they would constantly be talking through teams. Great. But if it was a deep, deep, deep emergency, they would text each other. And I'm like, there is no way on the planet if it's an emergency, man, I'm picking up a phone, I'm calling somebody. And I mean, you talk about, I think, generational and cultural differences of, are we doing something entirely online? And, Joey, to your point, that means if we get frustrated on people online, how do we express to people that were frustrated in a way that says like, okay, I need to start knocking heads together, but how do I do that in a way that, you know, expresses frustration or a sense of urgency or an unmet expectation? That doesn't..

Carol (00:16:55) - Make me look like. This is one of my favorite terms. You can. You can steal this as I'm, stealing, you know? McGovern., jackalope. Does it make you look like a jackalope? So, I mean, I think those things are, you know, really kind of interesting that as your, as our viewers and listeners are doing to take a look how and if you can and if you can't see it, you know, in, ask, ask some of the people of like, how, how do we handle conflict here in a remote way., what happens if I'm only in the same space with someone in a virtual team? So, I feel like I need to get their attention in a public or quasi-public environment because they seem unresponsive. I'm not getting the answers that I need, and had I been able to walk down the hall, I would have walked down the hall, you know, and sat in their doorway until they paid attention to me.

Carol (00:17:49) - So being able to see like asking people like if it's urgent, how do we talk to one another? And another thing is that I see this in the virtual way that people like autonomy, and if they want it heads down time, they would put like out office or unavailable. And I had someone tell me, like Carol, they're always, always unavailable, which means that's not good. And by the way. Are they actually working because you can't be unavailable all of the time.

Joey (00:18:22) - I think, so to kind of do a callback to one of our, our earlier episodes on the, on the show here. The word that keeps coming to my mind here is empathy. Like, I think that's something that is really important because what I'm hearing a lot of is that part of this as being a good conflict resolver is to what you mentioned earlier, trying to figure out what the motivation behind it is, right? Where, where like what kind of, you know, I'll think about a hypothetical example where maybe Hannah and I have a conflict that we need to solve.

Joey (00:18:56) - I think a good conflict resolver, if that's a word, would be somebody who is going to sit there and say, I need to understand where Hannah is coming from before I have the conversation to avoid it escalating from what's a five to a ten? Yeah.

Hannah (00:19:13) - And I want to add to that too, because things that you've said is that it sounds like conflict resolution is multi-layered. So, you've got situational awareness, you've got some emotional intelligence that's built in there as well, and you've got to figure that out. And that sometimes does take maturity and living through those situations. But also if there's leadership listening to this, it's also kind of going back to that same episode that you're talking about. Joey is making sure that there's an environment that is conducive to your employees being able to ask those questions of, hey, how do we resolve conflict here? What does that look like? How do we go about this? Because otherwise then, you know, you might feel really intimidated because of this, that power structure that's in place go into somebody and asking that question explicitly.

Carol (00:19:59) - Yeah. And I think it goes beyond if, you know, if there's any leaders out there., just saying, you know, I want you to direct assault, you know, talk to that person directly. Every employee manual in the history since like, the, since they started talking about, you know, rights and responsibilities and harassment discrimination say that there have been several Supreme Court cases that talk about that or so, but most people, because of power dynamics and being uncomfortable, will not. So, when leaders are saying don't when you talk to you, just go and talk to somebody. I think a great follow on question and, you know, great CPAs and great lawyers always ask the next logical question. So, think about that said, okay, so when I do that, what can I expect from them. Because I need to understand your culture enough. Like what can I expect from them. But the vast majority of people there is no training like there might be an obligation of go and talk to them, but there's really no training, no language, no framework.

Carol (00:21:04) - In order to do that, you can start having the conversation of, okay, so if I do that, you know, once, if it is a quote unquote open door or talk directly type of culture, what can I expect from them. And most people will go. That's an interesting question. And, Joey, to your point, I often say that when there is conflict that empathy has an inverse relationship to conflict, that the higher the conflict, that the empathy bucket goes out, because we're living in our own points of pain. And I would like to share with you that in that in conflict, everybody has their own point of pain. And so trying to, not to try to psychoanalyze people, but to recognize that everybody is, will be experiencing some type of disruption. And I often say that if there's a conflict with one person, by definition there is a conflict, it may not be to the same amplitude, that you may experience it, or you may be saying, oh, that's just really nothing, or that's no big deal.

Carol (00:22:12) - Yet it is a big deal for them and for most people, because they aren't comfortable with how they think you will respond, will minimize or avoid it. So, Joey, if you're saying like, hey, I'm just going to go straight at it, straight out of straight at it, that is great. And also, you have had time to be able to synthesize, to process. You probably already know what you're going to say., and you know how you're and you may have already wordsmith it a little bit. You may have sat on it for like a day or day or two. I don't know, maybe you're just like going to go straight to it. Most people don't have that time to intellectually or emotionally kind of catch up. So sometimes it's like, hey, I've got a concern about,, and just say like a general neutral topic, like, hey, I've got a concern about billing or I have a concern about, you know, about how about workload? What? You know, whatever it is.

Carol (00:23:09) - Just a very, very generic. So that way some people may have a little bit of an idea of what it is. And I think it's also a great empathetic and conflict resolution tool to let people know, like, hey, you know, I don't know if this was the conversation you were expecting., this is what I was thinking about it. If you need to take a couple, you know, if you want to take till the end of the day. Or we can. Let's loop back tomorrow after you've had a chance to be able to, like, synthesize what it is that I was saying. And you know, how we might be able to approach this. That's perfectly fine. I think a great conflict resolution muscle to develop is recognizing not everything is a one and done conversation. It may be a couple of different conversations, and it may be that you're that you and how you're doing that is seeking to define a new cultural norm. And that takes a little bit of time.

Joey (00:24:05) - Go for it, Hannah.

Hannah (00:24:06) - I was gonna say so we're talking about a conflict resolution scenario where you've had time to process the fact that you're walking into that scenario. What about scenarios? Whenever it it really comes out of nowhere, and you're just totally unprepared. Do you have some tips for how to respond in those situations? Because we probably all of us have probably been in a room where we did not expect conflict to arise, but it did.

Carol (00:24:32) - Okay, so I think the first is just to be able to acknowledge what's going on because it I have seen this where people are really intense and they don't realize how intense they're coming across., so I think, you know, there's a couple of phrases you could just do of just saying, like, there seems wow. There seems to be like a really I'm sensing a high degree of intensity. Or if they don't want to talk in terms of emotion, just say, because you could say, I'm saying like, where is all this emotion coming from? Or but if people don't want to talk about emotion, then you can say this.

Carol (00:25:11) - This feels really intense to me., and I'll give a little asterisk that different organizations have a different emotional intensity, bandwidth. Some have a very, very narrow bandwidth. And that goes to their culture. So if someone is wants to be really assertive and they're speaking at a fast pace, an increased,, intense tone of voice, I mean, it might just be like.

Carol (00:25:39) - Whoa whoa, whoa whoa whoa.

Carol (00:25:41) - You know, no yelling, no screaming. You know, you're out of control here. But that's that is just giving you a marker for what the emotional bandwidth tolerance is with that organization. So, you can say, it feels like we're really strongly about this or I'm sensing even a lot of apathy or I'm sensing some hesitancy about this. So all you're doing is reflecting back what you're perceiving to be the emotional waves going on. And, if it's something that you're really unprepared for, you could say, you know what? I wasn't expecting this conversation. I mean, because that's accurate, right? If you're not expecting this and then therefore, you're not prepared, but you could say I was expecting this conversation, then the next part of what you could do is say, let me see if I got what the topic and the concerns are for you.

Carol (00:26:32) - And you just repeat back as if Mr. Poe, you're out there. You know, my, freshman and, senior high school, English teacher, he said verbatim, which means word for word. So, if you can, nothing tells someone that you heard them like hearing their words come out of your mouth. And also, if there is an emotional component, you can lay in the emotional component of saying, okay, I just want to make sure, like I wasn't prepared for this conversation right now, this is unexpected. Let me take a moment and just repeat back what I heard. And then at that point, you're kind of starting to define what the issue or issues are. You don't have to immediately respond and check down. This isn't right, this isn't right, this isn't right. And if you are truly not prepared for it, say, I'm not prepared for this conversation right now. I wasn't expecting this conversation right now. And you could say, I think we could have a better, more productive.

Carol (00:27:28) - If you want to use buzzwords like collaboration or brainstorming or effective or efficient, conversation, if I have, if I can pull away and gather my thoughts and then come back to you and then you just say, you know, is that okay? And if they say no and they're in a higher position than you are, then it might say, okay, and if and if you'd say, but I would like to be able after we have this conversation and I have a little bit of time to reflect on it, I would like to follow back up with you about it. So, you're kind of getting permission to keep the door open to come back and like, revisit it after you've had it a little bit of time. And it might be like maybe you were receiving feedback that you didn't expect, and you need time to digest the feedback and you're saying, okay, this is what I got out, not what I heard you say, but this is what I got out of the conversation.

Carol (00:28:25) - But this is really important to you that I thought this was the most important thing, but for you, they're kind of equal importance or one is slightly higher, you know? So again, you're just kind of helping each other define what the issue or issues are. Because if you start engaging in unilateral problem solving, that's based on your perception of what's going on, and you may be doing things to exacerbate the situation. So, I'm not a big fan of unilateral problem solving. Think about it as some of your clients decided to do unilateral problem solving with their bookkeeping or with all this different stuff. We don't like that. They just said, I don't like. Those. You know, you guys have to forgive me, but there's a reason why I have a CPA and a bookkeeper. Because that stuff drives me crazy.

Joey (00:29:15) - Same reason we have lawyers.

Carol (00:29:16) - In law school. I'm like, I don't like this. I don't like this but, so being able to go to go back, I think that that's important because we talk about, you know, the ability to give and take feedback.

Carol (00:29:32) - It's no different than in conflict resolution, because conflict resolution at work is about how the work gets done and the and like, it's weird. Cousin, is feedback. I kind of just had a vision of the Barbie movie. There was weird Barbie that there's conflict resolution and there's feedback, and depending on where you are in the power structure, you kind of like one more than other ones, like the good Barbie and the others like the, you know, the wacky Barbie. But the wacky Barbie is more fun.

Joey (00:30:02) - The feedback thing is interesting because I think a lot of people, and especially younger people that I've noticed are like scared of feedback. And I was I was having a conversation with one of my professors from college, and we were talking about test taking and stuff like that, and how he's actually getting ready to or I think he just did publish a paper that's talking about how test anxiety in college students is like at an all-time high right now, because they don't see the true feedback that they're getting from grades.

Joey (00:30:33) - They don't see it as something as, oh, this is just feedback on what you know and what you don't know. It's oh no, this is feedback on your value as a student, yes or no. And because of that, I think a lot of it started a little bit with my generation. I think it's gotten worse, which is, you know, people are afraid of feedback, and they think, oh, all I hear is, oh, if you have to give me feedback, then it's negative as opposed to, no, this is a learning and a growth opportunity. And with that in mind, what are some ways for some of our younger CPAs who maybe aren't as comfortable in a feedback environment about getting comfortable receiving feedback?

Carol (00:31:11) - Oh, okay. We could have a whole...

Joey (00:31:15) - So that could be a whole another podcast.

Carol (00:31:16) - Conversation on that. Yeah. Okay. So, the first I'll just say it out loud, can I, so and if you need to beep this out, some people are crap at giving feedback.

Carol (00:31:25) - They absolutely are because it's very judgmental. It's very shaming and blaming., and the other thing too is that not every piece of feedback,. Okay is a growth opportunity. What I mean by that is like sometimes it's like sometimes we make like mistakes and sometimes it's it's a screw up. And so it's like and I think one of the things that, that people are concerned about is like, how do I deliver the message that this wasn't just an oops, this is a growth opportunity, but like, no, this is a screw up. And there are there there are cascading impacts of that. And I need for you to understand the magnitude of that. I'm that I'm dealing with this. And then there's like, well then did I make a mistake? Who's responsibility is it or did I just, you know, really just screw up and then what? And then again, going back to what's the tolerance, what's the bandwidth for the organization to be able to deal with that., so and the other thing is not all feed.

Carol (00:32:32) - A lot of the times the feedback may be more reflective of the person giving it, you know, and so I think there is a maybe having a little bit of a healthy reflective response, to be able to take a step back and say, okay, is this really about me or is this more about them? And I remember I've gotten feedback because I do a fair amount of public speaking at conferences and with associations and, you know, in-house with professional development opportunities. And I remember one kind of this was a a while ago, but I, we, I did this great, really fun presentation with a colleague, and I think it was a spin on The Wizard of Oz, you know, of, you know, workplace, you know, investigations, threats, harassment and UFOs. Oh my. Because there was lots of different stuff going on. And and one of the pieces of feedback was that I didn't like her hair, you know, she swept her finger across her hair too much.

Carol (00:33:37) - And I think it was a new haircut. I thought it was really cute and I and it was like. And that and that was the feedback of I didn't like her hair or something like that versus what is it about the content? What is it about the content? And I think, you know, one of the things like, well, was that more about them was that more about me? And I'm like, well, that was more about that. However, if it is that some people find certain behaviors distracting, you know, I, I can take a look at that. And so looking at it especially, you know, with the newer folks, you have people who have their preferred ways of doing things and they will train their preferred way, their preference as gospel as the way of doing of doing it. And it may be their way of doing it. It may not be the way of doing it. And chances are, the firm also has protocols that it works within the way that they do things, that creates their brand, that creates their reputation, that you, that you need to be aware of as well.

Carol (00:34:38) - And so certain things of, you know, don't do this, do this, do this instead. It may feel a little bit constricting, but that may be more in line with their culture and their brand and their reputation. So, being able to take feedback about, okay, is this a is this about me? Is this about the way that I process work that may impact how other people process work? Or is it you just don't like my hair?

Hannah (00:35:02) - Well, in similar to like the the don't like your hair feedback people found just in general aren't great at giving feedback. Like I feel like good giving, getting good feedback, constructive feedback is few and far between and similar to the unexpected conflict, response that you had. I feel like that is a very applicable response to, feedback you didn't expect to. I will. My mom can probably attest to the fact that, like, my mouth got me in trouble the most when I was a teenager because I like to immediately get defensive and say something back and like, want to respond in that moment.

Hannah (00:35:42) - So I feel like this was good advice, even for me now in terms of it being comfortable, saying I wasn't expecting that and need to take a minute and process that, and can we get back together on this in a little bit? And that is something that is can sometimes not feel natural to respond in those scenarios.

Carol (00:36:02) - So my, my son's, a young teenager now and from an early age, God help me. I've taught him to negotiate, and it can be really annoying because there are some things at work that are negotiable. There are some things that are non-negotiable and being. And we say we want collaboration. We want professional development. We want you to grow into your own, but usually there may be a boundary there, and you don't know where the boundary is until you step over it. And it tends to be pretty idiosyncratic to the people. So being able to, you know. To take feedback, and most people won't tell you if it's negotiable or not negotiable.

Carol (00:36:46) - And also some things that you know could possibly be negotiable that may be more collaborative and getting, you know, more, more brains and more perspectives in that to troubleshoot. It feels. Maybe a little bit insubordinate of like. Because sometimes when the senior partner tells you to do something, the boss tells you to do something. You just need to do it. You know, you may not know all of the intricacies of the whys. And I think particularly in organizations, the higher up you go, the more access you have to information. And there may and there is likely information out there that you do not have access to, that you will not have access to because your place in the organization, it's not out for public consumption or they don't want you to know, or it's not appropriate for you to know at that point in time. So you're not it's it's not like we're googling everything within the cultural norms of the organization. There are some things that you do not have access to, you will not have access to, and they may not tell you that.

Carol (00:37:46) - And so it maybe feels uncomfortable. And maybe we're not understanding why people made decisions of why something happened. And so, it's this dynamic of maybe being able to prompt the question of, you know, can I ask questions about this? And most people will, and then and then maybe prompt them and saying, I'm not sure. You, you know, maybe you're not at liberty to tell me everything, but if you're not at liberty, can at least tell me. You're not at liberty to tell, to tell, share all the information with me. But can you help me get some grounding in this? Because I want to better understand how decisions are made here. Because I want to be able to make decisions that are in line with what people who are reviewing my decisions would expect. So let me know. Is this negotiable? Can I talk about this? Can I talk about this now and not just theoretically, but can we talk about this now?

Joey (00:38:38) - Like that's that's a great piece of advice.

Joey (00:38:41) - And it's something that I didn't do well early in my career. I didn't ask enough questions early in my career. About to your point about what the culture is. I mean, I worked I worked for a place and this, this might make your your employment law stuff cringe. Where where the the joke was that, you know, harassment is not only, you know, tolerated, it's judged and graded appropriately., I didn't ask that question early enough in my career there and realized had I, had I been asking more questions about how our decisions made and what sort of things are going into this type of thing, I would have learned a lot sooner that that wasn't a good cultural fit for me. And it goes back to, I think the second thing that I think of when I think about that scenario you just talked about is, is trust, right? If I have I mean, I have an inherent like, you know, undefinable amount of trust for the leaders that hand and I directly work with here in the firm.

Joey (00:39:38) - And if they told me to do something, they said, hey, I can't really tell you why. I just need you to get this done for me. No questions asked. Yeah, I didn't have that same trust with other people. And I would be worried about, you know, is this something that's going to cause me to get arrested down the road because my, you know, my name was on something that shouldn't be there. So, I think those are all great questions, especially like in an interview process, if someone comes to me and says, hey, can you in an interview and says, can you talk to me about how your conflict resolution happens in your firm? That's such a great question. I'd be like that person is really invested in this process.

Carol (00:40:17) - Yeah. And I mean, when it would talk about a conversation people aren't or aren't expecting during the interview, but I think it also goes to a little bit of power balancing that if you an interview, we're asking that question.

Carol (00:40:31) - You're interviewing the firm as much as the firm is interviewing you. And that's not always the case. And there is a huge amount of freedom for that. Like, you know, and yeah, there, you know, there you go. Not everyone's really comfortable with that. Or they view that that degree of pushback or that degree of equalizing power structures isn't comfortable. I mean, it feels like a very American thing to do of being able to ask those types of questions. Other cultures are very, very hierarchical. And it would be considered, unheard of to ask that question., so it is just really kind of interesting. And, I think that's also the difference between larger, large, large, large firms and larger firms and smaller firms that you get it, you get a chance to develop personal relationships versus just know who the title is.

Joey (00:41:26) - So we're we're coming up here on, on time for the for the show. And before we kind of end with our fun question, I did want to ask one more kind of serious question just to give something there what is, you know, for for those who are either just getting started in their career or getting ready to get started, what's the biggest piece of professional advice that you can give our audiences? They're getting ready to enter the workforce in terms of not just conflict resolution, but how to find a place where they feel comfortable.

Joey (00:41:53) - You know, resolving their conflicts.

Carol (00:41:55) - That's a big thing. So here is my one big takeaway is that, conflict happens because something important is at stake. And and so this is sort of a non-answer to your question or a counterpoint, if I even get nervous having these conversations because I know that something's important. So this idea of you're going to be completely comfortable doing it. I think that that's a fallacy for most people. So just know that, you know, you can have those conversations anyway. But think about, you know, for example, when you're going in, just kind of recognize, you know, what is it? Two things. First, you know, think about what your proposal is. And I like framing it in the term proposal, which means that it is negotiable, that I'm willing to think about, you know, what you have to say, and maybe I'm, you know, I'm inviting or a response back, or maybe I'm inviting a counter response back.

Carol (00:42:54) - And the other thing is, if someone comes to you and is providing feedback or is complaining or telling this story that you're not quite sure what it is, you just turn to them and say, you know, help me understand what you're asking., and it may and it may be that they don't have an ask. They're just kind of venting it, maybe that that they come up with an ask and you realize, like, that's not my client. That's not my deal. I'm just. I'm just following what? Carol, my, you know, my director told me to do. I don't think that, you know, that it's not within my power or my range to be able to do to do that. So I think that that's a way of approaching it, you know, from both sides, you know, what exactly is your ask? And put it in the terms of, you know, I have I have a proposal to address this thing that is of concern or impacting me.

Carol (00:43:49) - And then also just recognize that you can take a deep breath and they are probably more nervous about you coming to them., in most cases. And if they're and if they're really comfortable, it might be that they have more comfort level, more trust, in the firm. And also they've been around for a little bit while a little while longer. So I think, that all of those, all of those things kind of create a mix. So it's going to be different from situation to situation and person to person. But I do think those couple of things about what, you know, I have a proposal, what's your ask? And, you know, recognizing nervousness in yourself and others are really good standbys that are going to help you maybe approach and respond to the conversations better. And if you're approaching and responding the conversations better, you're going to increase those conflict resolution muscles, and you're going to become the go to person to go to.

Hannah (00:44:47) - Well, I don't know about you, Joey, but I've gotten a lot to chew on in this episode in terms of how I'm going to approach my next, conversation, even with somebody in terms of especially when, how, when I don't expect it and whenever I do expect it with conflict.

Hannah (00:45:02) - So thank you so much for bringing all of this here to this episode and to our listeners. I can't thank you enough for that. But I do want to end on I think you might have picked up on this on the conversation that we were having, pre-show that Joey and I are self-proclaimed foodies. 

Joey (00:45:18) - Oh, yeah. 

Hannah (00:45:19) - Here so, let's just say, me and Joey come to visit you in Washington, correct? I got that, got that right. Correct. Okay. What are you going to take a seat? Like where are you going to take us to eat or what kind of food are you going to?

Carol (00:45:30) - Okay, well, here in Washington state, we are known for our salmon. And so one of the things that also people will say, like there's more than one type of salmon. Oh yes, there there are many types of salmon. And we ask is it farmed or is it wild., so salmon is huge out here., we also have, we've got a lot of really great, cocktail bars, like some really good, some really good mixologists out here.

Carol (00:45:57) - and also, we are known for our blackberries. And one of the things we filmed, we were filming this around Thanksgiving. So I got a Marion Barry pie, which is a beautiful kind of sweet and kind of tart pie. So I'd say, you know, some wild salmon, and some Marion Berry pie with a nice cocktail.

Hannah (00:46:20) - I'm so hungry now.

Joey (00:46:22) - I know. So, Hannah, the last time that I was in Washington, we did one of the tours around Seattle, and we went through the locks and we were going through around the time that the salmon are migrating back. Those swim, those salmon figure out how to swim upstream through a lock. And I've never seen that before. You just see them just, you know, it's insane jumping over the things getting back home. It's crazy. And she's not lying. The same is really good up there. Yeah. It's delicious.

Carol (00:46:47) - Yeah. Oh yeah. And oysters. We're known for our oysters out here so a little.

Carol (00:46:53) - If I would take you a little shout out to Mahomet Wasters, which sits on the hood, hood canal, and there are benches out there, and then you sit on the outdoor benches and eat the oysters that came out of, of the of the Hood Canal. It's an amazingly quintessential northwest, experience. Of course, you're gonna wear your coat because it's kind of cold.

Hannah (00:47:14) - Well, I've never been to Washington, but now when I come eat some salmon, have a cocktail, and have some pies. So that's exactly what I'm going to add to my list.

Joey (00:47:23) - Well, Carol, thank you so much for for joining us. Where can if anybody, you know, not just, you know, the young CPAs coming up and anybody who listens to this who might be looking for you for their next personal development opportunity, or maybe they need your professional services to help solve some, some things in their organization. Where can they find out more about you and what you do?

Carol (00:47:40) - Well, you can go to the website managingconflict.com and you can reach out there, see about all of the various professional development and speaking and training opportunities that are there.

Carol (00:47:52) - And if you're so interested, I'm on several different social media, platforms, including LinkedIn. We're not too long ago, someone named me one of the top 30 people to follow on LinkedIn for conflict resolution. And, so reach out, do that if you're so inclined, and you want a little daily tidbit of conflict resolution, skill building, tips, tricks, techniques., you can go to the website again ManagingConflict.Com and you can tap on the link to sign up for the conflict tip of the day.

Joey (00:48:23) - I'm going to do that Hannah because I need it's a muscle that I need to that I need to flex a little bit better. So Carol thank you so much.

Carol (00:48:30) - You're quite welcome.

Outro (00:48:31) - If you're a young CPA looking to develop in their careers, we're always looking for great people. Visit our website for remote work opportunities with Summit Virtual CFO or find all our open positions at Anders CPAs and advisors.