Important Financial Metrics for Agencies with David C. Baker

The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 97

Jamie and Jody welcome David C. Baker, esteemed speaker, published author, and agency advisor–having consulted with more than 900 small independent firms. They delve into the importance of understanding and impacting the financial performance of an agency, offering advice on analyzing financials and setting financial goals. David shares key metrics to monitor and emphasizes the need for honesty and transparency in advising clients. David encourages listeners to tackle money head-on.

intro (00:00:00) - Welcome to the Virtual CPA Success Show for creative agencies. The go to resource for agency owners looking to scale their business. Join us every week to stay ahead of the curve and position your agency for future success.

Jamie (00:00:14) - Hello everybody. Welcome to today's episode. I am very excited for today's guest. Anyone that is familiar with agencies or marketing has definitely heard of today's guest David C. Baker. And I'm also excited because we get to talk about finance with someone who is not a CPA. So welcome to the show, David, and go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit of your background. 

David (00:00:34) - Thank you. So owned an agency for five years, been advising agencies for 29 years. It seems like a long time. Worked with a thousand firms individually, like in a consulting way. And then thousands of others have been through different seminars and so on, written six books to the field, and I do the advisory side. Jonathan does the M&A side. There's just two of us. There's your brief introduction. 

Jody (00:01:05) - Everybody needs to know.

Jody (00:01:06) - And you got your newest, your newest book, the one that we've Won, that we've just recently read, Secret Trademarks of Elite Advisors. Excellent read, very easy to read, and a lot of common sense stuff in there that you just kind of have to be pulled out. And I think that if you're an advisor, you definitely need to read it. It's a must read. We had we bought it for our entire team and got some great feedback from the folks that, Oh, thank you, thank you.

David (00:01:32) - Yeah, had a fun time writing it. I'm leaving on Thursday to try to write a novel, which is a really stupid thing to do. I don't. I have no idea how to do that. I know how to write business books, but I want to try something different. So we'll see.

Jamie (00:01:46) - Oh, well, good luck on that. No, no.

David (00:01:48) - It'll be the first novel with bullet points everywhere.

Jody (00:01:52) - Pictures, pictures all over the place.

Jamie (00:01:54) - I just hope you don't have a character in it named Jody Grunden, because that would just be terrible.

David (00:01:58) - Yeah.

Jamie (00:02:00) - That'd be cool. I'll be the villain, too, if you want.

Jamie (00:02:05) - Great. So let's jump into to your background on the finance side a little bit. So like said, you got you have a nice book about finance for marketing and accounting for marketing and like said, you don't really have that accounting background. So am curious kind of what made you write that book and what was, what's the audience, how's the audience response been? 

David (00:02:26) - I felt a desperate need to write that book because I felt for a long time that success in this field, you can't really make a draw, a straight line between a successful firm and a really creative firm. It's often the creative side is way more than the client would notice, and it's unpaid for the last little bits that you're doing to improve it. But there is a direct connection between success in this field and your financial performance and knowing it, understanding it. So I thought, well, maybe I'm not a CPA, but maybe I could write this in a way that non accounting people would really appreciate.

David (00:03:03) - And I didn't set out to write the book. It's called Financial Management of a Marketing Firm. It just the second edition just came out a few months ago, but I just wrote a bunch of articles like one How to Collect Money People Owe You, or How to read a balance Sheet, whatever. And then at the end of all that, I thought, Oh, this should probably be a book. And so I sent it to an editor and I said, Turn all these articles into a book and tell me what's missing. And then I wrote those 3 or 4 chapters, and then it came out. So it was really an attempt to help people who aren't from an accounting background understand finance, because I'm sure you've realized this because you've got 100 clients in this space as your clients, 100 agencies. What is this balance sheet of which you speak this sort of like, Well, how far do I go? How back, how far back do I go to explain that stuff?

Jody (00:03:51) - It's pretty amazing how folks have been so successful in not really understanding the true way, the true reason their business is actually generate revenue.

Jody (00:04:01) - The reason why how they generate income, you know, success. I think a lot of folks just got lucky and priced it properly and kind of built their practice. And because of that, they think, Oh, I'm doing well. I don't need your help because my look at the way that my finances are running. How do you address those folks or you or am I right? Or could I be completely off base on that?

David (00:04:23) - No, I think you're right. What I one of the things I do is I try to set standards for this and say, okay, your profitability ought to be this. That's part A, Part B is O and you can't underpay yourself in order to achieve that profitability, right? So we've got to build these two things together. And then if that isn't the case, then how are we going to fix that? Right. And it is kind of surprising. I still have some clients, although it's not nearly as prevalent as it used to be where you have they've got an 80 year old CPA in New York who does everything on a cash basis, no accrual basis.

David (00:04:59) - The statements are every quarter and they refuse to follow industry practices. Right. And the firm still makes a lot of money. It just sort of. Yeah. And then you've got other people that are using very they're using great planes or, or net sweet or some, you know, some overkill product. And they've got everything figured out, including all their cost accounting and they've got 7% profitability every year. They're not making much money, but they know where everything is. It's just so weird to see all these different contrasts.

Jody (00:05:31) - What do you think the big difference is?

David (00:05:35) - Uh, I think it comes from. Aptitude for entrepreneurial risk. Some people really view their business in the creative field as it's sort of like Norm, you know, when he got a job at a brewery. From Cheers, Norm from Cheers. And he they hand him a paycheck after the first two weeks and he looks at it and says, What's this? I didn't know I was getting a paycheck, you know, And he's hugging the vats every morning.

David (00:06:04) - I think some creative folks are just so thrilled to be to find clients who pay them for something that their expectations are lower. Right. Whereas the really successful ones view themselves as a professional service. They're an architect, an engineer, a CPA, a lawyer or somebody in the creative field, and they don't feel like they have to make a compromise in terms of how much money they make. 

Jamie (00:06:29) - Yeah, and think it's been fun to see companies go through that business maturity. Like you said, when you first when you're first doing your thing, you're like, Oh wow, people are people are paying me.

Jamie (00:06:37) - For this and this is fun. This is what I've.

Jamie (00:06:38) - Always wanted to do. And then, you know.

David (00:06:40) - By the time.

Jamie (00:06:41) - We first meet with them and then, you know, two years later, you can see the questions they're asking and how well they understand their business and all these.

Jamie (00:06:47) - Parts of it.

Jamie (00:06:47) - So you want to kind of talk about that path from that point where your point A, you're like, Oh, this is I just love what I do, two point kind of C or Z or whatever it is.

Jamie (00:06:55) - But you're like, Oh, wow, I really understand my business. 

David (00:06:58) - Yeah. And I try to come up with ways that help them in a very simplistic way figure out where they are. So I wrote an article recently about if you want one single metric to figure out how your firm is doing, here are the eight options and here are the pros and cons of each. And then I landed on one and I said, Listen, here's the simplest one. Your fee billings per full time equivalent employee and 85% of firms are stuck in that 150 to 160 range. And once they see that, they're stuck there and how to improve that, all of a sudden the light comes on and they think about their business very differently. I think finance needs to be viewed as a way to tell a story, an interesting story that you can shape by doing things differently.

Jody (00:07:46) - It's kind of funny you mentioned that because when we bring a client on, the first thing we do is we put together a really in-depth forecasting model for them.

Jody (00:07:55) - And it's not one of those deals where you just said at the beginning of the year and you look at the end of the year and say, how did I do compared to that mystical number that I made up, you know, 12 months ago. It's one of those very robust things. It's very dynamic Every month. We're changing it based on what life is and what life happens to them. And the key is it's not just simply saying, Hey, we're going to increase our revenue by 10% or 15%, or we're going to miraculously increase our bottom line by, you know, to 25 or 30% or where we should be. It's really breaking it down to the non financials, right? You know, hey, how many you know, you know, what do we have to do? How many people do we have to have? What, you know, what's our billable rate? You know, all the different non-financial metrics that they actually have control over to be able to make those decisions. And a lot of folks are like, wow, no one's ever brought it or broken it down.

Jody (00:08:43) - That simple for me to understand that I just can't miraculously hit a goal by saying and, you know, saying, you know, by by labeling, hey, we're going to hit that 10% number. And it's kind of funny how many folks, you know, actually achieve or nearly achieve those numbers when they have that financial plan and forecasts put in front of them. And I'm assuming that's kind of where you're getting at with that is that you really can't just simply it's got to be based on you got to break it down to the non-financial I guess is the big key.

David (00:09:11) - Right. And somebody at the firm here, I'm assuming there's more than one partner, but at least one of the partners has to think that their one of their primary jobs is to understand and impact the financial performance of the firm. I mean, that's job one. That's even more important than culture. It's more important than new business. And once you get that done, then and you may need outside help with that, obviously, then you can move on to these other things.

David (00:09:39) - But if the firm isn't performing, it doesn't matter how good your new business plan is. You won't need one. 

Jamie (00:09:47) - Now, think the interesting thing you mentioned that that one metric and think that for our listeners what like what you said there is that finance is about storytelling. And so that's what I'm trying to train my CFOs and our team on all the time is when you're sitting into a financial statement meeting, you need to be able to tell someone what the story of this month was. And it's not. You don't want to be boring with it. You want to say, this is what happened this month and this is how next month can be better. So think that's I work with financial professionals on telling that story. But if I'm listening to this and I'm a small firm and can't really afford a financial professional

Jamie (00:10:18) - How would I go about looking for that story each month of the financials or each quarter? How often I should do it? 

David (00:10:25) - Hmm. I The first piece of advice I'd give somebody listening in those shoes would be to figure out how you process information and then adapt it to a way that makes sense to you so that you can get excited about it.

David (00:10:37) - Right? Like, and everybody, everybody has a really weird way to do that. Like mine is sort of a Macabre way. I just think months to live. So I add up what's in the bank, what's in savings, what's in accounts receivable. Divide that by what my monthly nut is. And I said, okay, got nine months to live, 11 months to live. And then I just track that, right? So as long as it's basically on track, come up with something that works for you and then make this a part of how you think all the time. Right. And report on it. Employees don't care that much about financial performance of your firm unless it isn't there. Then they start caring. But you have to care about it, right? And you've got to see far ahead because you've got to make really tough decisions. And in this industry, those tough decisions are almost always about people. They're not about facility or contractors because most of your expenses are with people, and those are really painful to make.

Jody (00:11:36) - Yeah. Like how you did that. You basically gave them, you know, hey, here's the formula and just make sure that you're looking at that formula every single month, month over month. And that's your formula. That's your one not. And if there's something wrong with that, then of course you need to look digging deeper and figure it out. But as long as that formula is that, as long as that percentage stays within the same ballpark, we're smooth sailing. So you made it fairly simple, simple process for I think people to understand, especially business owners that really don't understand the finances. They have a general idea or general understanding.

David (00:12:10) - Hey, when somebody comes to you guys, do they to Summit? Do they already know? They're pretty sophisticated. They just don't have the time to do it? Or are they unsophisticated and need to get an education? To you? 

Jamie (00:12:27) - I'd say more or less pie in the second group. I'd say a lot of times they there's kind of like you said, they're sophisticated in 1 or 2 areas or they they really understand 1 or 2 things, but they don't understand the big picture. And so kind.

Jamie (00:12:39) - Of what Jody was talking about there is if that 1 or 2 thing is going in the wrong direction, they don't necessarily know how to dig into it and how to fix it, right? So they're like, oh, yeah, my months to my months to zero is down to three now it's two. I don't know how to fix this. I don't know how to change it. And that's a lot.

Jamie (00:12:53) - Of time where they come to us so we can add a little bit more sophistication into it instead of just that.

Jamie (00:12:57) - Basic finance knowledge.

David (00:12:59) - Right, right!

Jody (00:13:01) - And I would also add to that, they come and they come to us a degree, a different degree, different degrees of time. You know, it may be that we're down to one month. Yeah. And you know, please help. Or maybe that, you know, that's 12 months away and they just want somebody to get a better understand or take ownership of it.

Jody (00:13:19) - So I think it varies dramatically on when they come to us. But no matter if it's 12 months or one month, it seems like we're the savior or we're the issue. Right?

David (00:13:31) - Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And or they just met with their financial planner and they realized, oh, we're going to need a little more money in order to be be to retire at 83. You know, it's let's, let's fix this now.

Jody (00:13:45) - Yeah. How do you how do you you know as an advisor mean and I, I really respect you in a way that you're very straightforward. You tell how it is, you know, you don't sugarcoat anything. And I think that's super important for a lot of business owners. And so, you know and and with that though, how do you prevent or how do you prevent yourself to be looked at as the bad guy versus the good guy? Or don't you really even care about that? Does it make any difference to you at all how you're perceived amongst those folks? And then in the same respect, kind of adding piggybacking off my conversation or my my point earlier is that how do you how do you the advice that you give or the advice, the direction that you give, you give a client, how do you prevent them from saying, you know, oh, you're the reason why we're at the place we are, whether that's good or bad, right?

David (00:14:36) - Right Yeah.

David (00:14:37) - I wish I cared more. Honestly, it probably would be better. But I am. I am bound to avoiding malpractice. And so as much as I hate it when a client is disappointed in me, I cannot live with myself if I am not having a candid, honest, transparent conversation with them. And so my pledge to them is not to be right, because I don't know how to deliver on that. My pledge to them is to always be honest with them, and they'll have to decide whether I'm right or not. I'm the I'm Kramer and Seinfeld, like all babies are not cute. And I don't mind saying it like I'm not going to tell the mother, the recent mother, that her baby isn't cute, but outside of her earshot, I'm going to be honest about it. So it's a different style, but it's also why I'm not a coach. I would make a terrible coach. And so whenever somebody comes to me and that's what they're looking for, I always refer them to somebody else because I'm not somebody that's going to gently encourage you and just check in about whether you've done that.

David (00:15:43) - It's like, no, just get off your ass and do it. Like that's more my style. And it's not the perfect style, but it is what it is. I just what I have to live with. 

Jamie (00:15:54) - Yeah. No, I think the interesting thing about that, we just had a, um, a client call the other day and was just kind of talking with them and they, they told us in some aspect that they, they wish they had a little more, that they wish that, you know, that we would come in and be like, you know, this is exactly what it is and this is why it's this way and be a little hard line, because sometimes we try to be somewhat adaptable, kind of like you said with the clients. Like sometimes a number resonates with them a little bit more than another number. So it will be adaptable. Okay, let's talk about this number. But we always the thing that sometimes is missed is like the relationship between.

Jamie (00:16:25) - Those two numbers is. Yeah, you may even want to be talking about revenue per producer. And we want to be talking about, you know, our effective rate. But end of the day, there is a similarity between those two numbers and it's understanding those two numbers and how they relate to each other and think that's where a.

Jamie (00:16:39) - Finance professional comes in.

David (00:16:41) - Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, what kind of a relationship do you want with your doctor? Do you want the truth? Yes. Do you want them to be kind and empathetic? Yes. Right? But you can there can be a kind ruthlessness. That's what Blair ends my podcast partner talks about all the time. And that's sort of the approach. I've always been ruthless, but more recently I've been kind too, so I think it's probably an improvement in my bedside manner. I'm no longer Simon Cowell. 

Jamie (00:17:11) - Hopefully you're not Randy and you're like not singing to your clients. 

David  (00:17:15) - Yeah, right. 

Jamie (00:17:18) - Great. Let's talk a little bit more about these. I think what I.

Jamie (00:17:22) - Really like about your books and the way you talk is something that I've always told and every every level of my career, whether was at Frontier, which is a large organization or here at Summit is I've always told people I talked to is let's let's try to simplify finance right? Like if someone came in to me when I was at Frontier and was trying to explain this complex hedging accounting, the first thing I'd say is like, whoa, slow down, Let's explain this to me. Like I'm my 13 year old daughter. Let's not explain this to me like I'm a CPA. And so, like, can you talk about some more of those metrics that you feel are pretty simple, but also things that marketing professionals to be keeping an eye on? 

David (00:17:55) -  Yeah, sure. So fee billings per full time equivalent, most firms are at 150 to 160. I think they ought to be at 220. Uh, client concentration is a big one, so any single client shouldn't represent more than my standard. That is 25%.

David (00:18:12) - A lot of you folks are more conservative than I am, and you'd say maybe 10 or 15%. Another would be how thick should your cash cushion be? I want that to be I mean, personally, I want it to be six, eight, nine months, but it would never be less than 2 or 3 months. That would be another one. Utilization. So. Individuals would bill up to 85% of their time if they're sort of like using football terms, their role players, skill players, and then the role players like AMS and PMS would be lower and so on. But 60% of the group as a whole should be captured. Let me think. Are there some other ones? Oh, profitability. Always aiming for 20%. But after indexing principal comp and there's numbers for that as well, we index that to based on how big the firm is. And then we assume that after a certain point, the rest of the money should come from distributions leverage. We don't ever want somebody to owe more than $0.60 for every dollar of asset they have.Those kinds of things. Those are the big ones, I think.

Jamie (00:19:22) - No, I think that's very similar to a lot of stuff. Stuff we talk about. So that's good. And obviously I've read your books and used it in some of my consulting. I do have one question because I know it's a question I get almost every time when we talk about.

Jamie (00:19:22) - Concentration client concentration.

Jamie (00:19:34) - So if I'm working with Facebook and I'm working with three different departments of Facebook.

Jamie (00:19:39) - Is each department its.

Jamie (00:19:40) - Own or do I have to count Facebook as one? 

David (00:19:43) - Facebook is one? Absolutely. Because you're not going to lose Facebook because you screw up. You'll fact you'll go out of your way to be really good to them. You'll lose Facebook because they're purchased, which of course is not going to happen with Facebook or more likely, there's what's called a vendor review. So a new CFO comes in and says, What the heck? We've got 78 agencies. We've got to slim this list down. And you you'll have no control over that process.

David (00:20:12) - They'll slim it down to 13, which is the average, and you'll either be in or you'll be out. So yeah, it's all the same, 

Jamie (00:20:19) - Right! Yeah. Guess no big question. Comes up to me all the time. I'm about you, Jody.

Jody (00:20:23) - Oh, all the time. Yeah. And they would disagree with you like just about 90% of the time.

David (00:20:27) - Right? Right.

Jody (00:20:28) - And you tell me which is. Which is funny. I guess the question piggybacking off of that one, you know, when someone does say that and said, well, how do I get you know what? What do you mean to do? Let go of those clients? And my response is, no, we just need to help our marketing and and look for additional Facebook's out there to kind of minimize that risk. Is that is that kind of your your idea? Exactly.

David (00:20:51) - Yeah. Yeah this is America we don't turn down opportunity so yeah you would definitely take it and look for others and then sometimes you might impose what I think of as a gorilla tax without them knowing it.

David (00:21:03) - So you pull a percentage off everything they pay and set it aside a little bit because you are going to lose them. It's just a matter of when and when you lose them. You want to have a thick cushion. You want to act quickly with terms of staffing and so on. But yeah, I give the same advice you do.

Jody (00:21:20) - Okay. Yeah, because we tell them instead of pulling it away, we tell them to have about 10% of your annual revenue in the bank. And if you've got, if you've got, if you've got a Facebook in the world, then maybe it's 15%. And it's for that reason alone, you know, in the event that they are to disappear, you're going to need a little time to readjust your team and really kind of figure out how to get that new person or new company if you haven't already done so. 

David (00:21:42) - Right.

Jamie (00:21:43) - And then then the more fun part is making Facebook smaller, right? Like, okay, let's let's grow our revenue. So Facebook's only 10% so we can keep having this conversation.That's the more fun part right?

David (00:21:50) - Well sometimes that kind of promotes an M&A movement where they buy another firm that also has a big client concentration. Then there's no applied penalty for either the buyer or the seller. Sometimes that's the way to solve it, too. 

Jamie (00:22:04) - Yeah, great. All right. So we're going to.

Jamie (00:22:07) - We're going to shift gears.

Jamie (00:22:08) - Here a little bit to the to a little bit of extra activity here. So you've mentioned a couple or several shows in this podcast. So I'm guessing that you're a TV watcher, so I'm going to ask the question a little bit differently. So one of my favorite podcast is the Rewatchable. It's a podcast about movies that you can watch over and over again and never get tired of. So I'm going to I'm going to turn that on a shift. Like what TV show can you watch over and over again.

Jamie (00:22:33) - And never get tired.

Jamie (00:22:34) - Of it? If the episodes.

Jamie (00:22:34) - On You're just going to leave that show on.

Jamie (00:22:36) - You're going to let that episode run even if you've seen it 30 times.

Jamie (00:22:38) - So both of you guys are thinking, So think.

Jamie (00:22:42) - Dave is going to come up with the answer a little bit quicker.

Jamie (00:22:43) - Because he's already mentioned a couple shows. So let's, let's start with you, David. 

David (00:22:47) Uh, it would probably have to be Seinfeld. I just find the humor to be timeless on there. It have to be Seinfeld for me, Yeah. It's just it gives away the age, right? Somebody else is going to say friends or Jody's going to say Archie Bunker or something.

Jamie (00:23:06) - So, okay. So I'm going to set.

Jamie (00:23:08) - A follow up question here. Just because Seinfeld is my answer to and don't want to be boring. So do you have a favorite Seinfeld episode.

Jamie (00:23:14) - That you could think off the top of your head? 

David (00:23:16) - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's where Jerry says, you know, George comes running out of the bathroom with his pants around his ankles, and he falls on the floor in front of him because Van DeLay Industries calls. Oh, and Jerry says, And you want to be my latex salesman while he's on the floor with his pants around his ankles? It's the funniest episode.

Jamie (00:23:36) - Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Mine. Mine always, when I always think back on is the one where George is trying to change his nickname. He keeps ordering T-bones at the dinner and he's out there arguing and he's like, He looks like that coke with a monkey. And that's his nickname. That's definitely my favorite. That's a great one. Yeah. Remember that one? All right, Jodi, what's what's your Rewatchable show?

Jody (00:23:55) - Oh, dude, that's a tough one because I don't watch a lot of the sitcoms like that at all. But but I will tell you movie wise, you know, the the one that comes up that I will I will if I'm if I'm scanning through and I see it no matter where it's at in the movie, you know, I rewatch it and it's kind of funny that it's named the accountant, but it's the account, you know?

David (00:24:17) - Oh, right. Yeah.

Jody (00:24:18) - Just love that movie. And I don't know why exactly. I love it, but.

Jody (00:24:22) - But I love it. And the other one would be miracle. You know, every time that one comes up, I'm rewatching that one over and over. I probably seen that one a hundred times pretty easily. And, you know, it's just that underdog feeling and overcoming all those circumstances and and the brilliance of a coach, you know, uniting a team of not necessarily misfits, but of really talented people and to overcome a huge obstacle. So those are the two big ones that I would say that I rewatch all the time.

Jamie (00:24:52) - Yeah. The hard part about Miracle is it's like five hours long. So like if you're, if you're like in the beginning of you're like, I'm in for the next like 4.5 hours. You're watching this movie. But I do love that movie. Okay, So we're kind of getting into the end here. So what we'd love to do at the end of our episodes is make sure our listeners have one final thoughts. So if they've made it this far, the in the episode, what is one thing they should walk away from this podcast with? So let's let's start with you David 

David (00:25:18) - Money is not scary. Just tackle it you'll figure it out, simplify it. Don't be terrified of it because then you avoid it because you're not sure what to do with it. Right? It's not terrifying. It's fun. Do this fun.

Jamie (00:25:31) - All right, Jody, 

Jody (00:25:32) - I'm going to add to that. And one thing that my partner Adam over and over says, he says that money's not evil. A lot of folks, when we get into the industry, they're looking at, well, hey, why would I want to be that profitable? You know, this is more of a lifestyle thing. And it's one of those deals that any solid business owning a lifestyle, if it's profitable and successful and building cash and protecting and protecting the the folks that are on the team because they have that cash and because they have that stewardship. And so I would say, you know, to add to that, I'd say, you know, building a solid cash cushion is super important to any successful business and to any marketing firm out there.

Jody (00:26:12) - And in doing that, you've got to have a solid bottom line, which I know David, you're big in, and you help folks, folks, achieve that through many different ways. And so I would say if they don't have somebody like yourself on the team, they really need to have a David C. Baker helping out to to right the right, the right the ship.

Jamie (00:26:32) - Yeah. No, I think my takeaway is, is something you said early on and think it's actually pretty similar to yours, David. It's you have to start somewhere, right? Like if, if finance is intimidating to you find one place to look, find one thing that resonates with you and be consistent looking at it. And then when that number or that concept is changing, that might be where you have to call for help. But you have to have that one thing that really makes sense to you when it comes to finance and dive into it and just start there. If you start there, you're going to find out that this stuff isn't as complicated as as you think it is.

Jamie (00:27:02) - Mean Jody can do it. Think anyone can do it. So that's that's one I agree. That's another concept to think about when it comes to this stuff. So awesome. Well, I think this has been a great episode. I know took a lot of notes and thought a lot of stuff about what you said. But David, where can they where can people find you and how do they get hold of you? 

David (00:27:18) - So we're changing the company name and it's already redirected so they can go to punctuation.com. and my email address is david@punctuation.com and everything is there there's like 2 million words of free stuff to anybody wants to sign up for the free weekly emails feel free. I'd love to have you.

Jamie (00:27:38) - And you also podcast that everybody's always talking about. 

David (00:27:41) - Oh yeah a little bit as well. Two Bobs. It's me and somebody else too. Boscombe. 

Jamie (00:27:48) - Awesome.

Jody (00:27:49) - I love the name, by the way.

David (00:27:50) - Thank you. Yeah. From office space, right?

Jody (00:27:53) - Yep. Yep.

Jamie (00:27:54) - It tells you what you're getting into coming into the podcast.

Jamie (00:27:56) - That's helpful. Awesome. Well, yeah, definitely appreciate both of you.

Jamie (00:28:00) - Guys being on the show.

Jamie (00:28:01) - And like said, we'll I'm going to up to having you on again and talk about some of your other books as well. David So appreciate the time. 

David (00:28:06) - Thank you. Take care.

Jody (00:28:07) - Thank you.

outro (00:28:09) - Enjoy this podcast. Visit our website Summit CPA Net to get more tips and strategy for achieving business success. We're here to be a resource in this ever changing industry.