The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 71
In this episode, Jamie Nau, our host and Summit CPA's Director of Virtual CFO, and Jody Grunden, Partner at Anders CPAs + Advisors, sit down with Sandy Gerber, Communication Strategist and author of Emotional Magnetism. They discuss what emotional magnetism is and how it can help develop stronger relationships in all areas of life.
Welcome to the Virtual CPA Success Show, where we're 100% focused on helping service-based businesses achieve success. Are you a business owner interested in learning how to scale your business? Has your business reached over $1 million in annual revenue? Then this podcast is for you.
Jamie Nau: Hello, everybody. Welcome to today's show. I am super excited for today's guest because she has a really fun read about a new personality test that's out there. And the reason I'm excited about it is because Jody and I have worked together for several years and every time we take one of these, Jody is always convinced that his personality is the highest rated.
I'm gonna throw it over to you here first, Sandy of all the results, which one is the best? And then you can do an introduction.
[00:00:46] Jody Grunden: Oh, that would be mine.
[00:00:49] Sandy Gerber: This is gonna be fun. I'm happy, happy to be here, guys. Thanks so much, Jody and Jamie for having me. I'll tell you a little bit about myself, and then we can dive into any questions you guys have. So, I've been in marketing and communications for over 25 years, and I like to tell people I kind of have marketing in my blood, right?
[00:01:08] Because I was that kid, when I was young, I was that kid that other kids came to ask, “What do I say to get my parents to say yes?” in elementary school. So, it's just been a passion of mine for a long time. I have worked in a variety of industries and different setups for marketing as well–corporate and agency. I was an entrepreneur for a while as well, nonprofit and small business.
So you name it, I've done it, and it's just been a joy. I love it. So about four weeks ago I joined a company as their executive CMO, Chief Marketing Officer, at Harbourfront Wealth Management. You know, this is a company in Canada that's really getting the eye because they are visionaries in that industry.
[00:01:49] Their whole mission is to transform and shape the future of wealth management. So, I signed up for the challenge, and I'm ready to do that. But why I'm here today is that recently I published a book, which took me nine years to create. It’s not that I work slow or anything; it's just that I was doing it on the side of the desk.
[00:02:12] So it's my passion project right from the heart, and it's called Emotional Magnetism: How to Communicate to Ignite Connection in Your Relationships. And you know, I'm happy to chat about how that all came about, but really it was Kelly on your team who had read it and she said, “Hey, this is kind of cool.I love it. And let's have Sandy on the show to talk to your consultants and your agencies about how they can use emotional magnetism with their clients.”
So that's why I'm here.
[00:02:41] Jody Grunden: Yeah, no, that's cool. So nine years, geez. It took me about a year and a half to do my first book and then my second book, we did it in probably a half year, and I thought that first book was never gonna end.
[00:02:50] I can't even imagine. Nine years. You've probably picked it up, put it back down, picked it up. You probably quit it many times, I'm guessing. Take us through that journey because writing a book is not easy and especially the quality of the book you write is definitely not easy.
[00:03:06] Sandy Gerber: Yeah, you're right. The reaction to the book when it finally got published was quite funny because people all want to write a book, right? Everybody wants to do it. Well, I could say everybody, but most people wanna write a book and, you know, Jody, having done it, it's really hard work.
Iit took a long time because, like I said, I was really trying to do it, as a single mom, so I was writing it at night when the kids were asleep, and it took a lot of time to research.
[00:03:29] So when I say I created it, a lot of that was time researching and figuring out what the heck's going on. And it came out of a motivation that I was really successful in my professional life, but in my personal life, I felt like a fraud. I was communicating really well, winning awards, and all that.
[00:03:45] It was all great. But then, when I came home at night, I was trying to co-parent with an ex-husband, and I couldn't get him to pick the kid up from soccer. So, I felt like there is a big incongruence there, and it was a challenge. And so I started thinking, okay, well how can I actually communicate more effectively?
[00:04:01] And so I started researching. So this journey, these nine years, it's not the normal way that someone writes a book, Right? Doesn't usually take that long. But it was my life unfolding, and that's why the book is less of a non-fiction kind of academic book and more of one that's more like a memoir.
[00:04:19] It's highly entertaining. Well, I'll let you tell me what you think, Jamie and Jody.
[00:04:24] Jody Grunden: I love the idea that you spoke from you, so it wasn't like a scientific book where you're reading and just reading facts, but you brought your own story in there. You talked about your ex-husband, and basically the path that went through there, which for me was really easy to relate.
[00:04:39] Not that I've got an ex-husband or ex-wife, but it was more, it was more personal. It came from you. And that, I thought, was a big part of it. That is what I love the most about how easy it was to read and then reread, because I did read it twice. It was a great read both times.
[00:04:58] Jamie Nau: Thanks, Jody. This is Jody showing me up; I knew he was going to say he read it twice.
[00:05:16] Let’s talk about the four motivators that you talked about in the book. I think that that's a good starting point so that our audience has a good idea of what we're talking about as we kind of go into the nuts and bolts of this book. So people ask what is emotional magnetism?
[00:05:29] Sandy Gerber: So the name of the book, it's really an easy communication tool that you can use to communicate more effectively in your relationships. And that's not just your relationships at home, but at work as well. So the four magnets, I call them emotional magnets. Let me take it back to how that came.
[00:05:43] Jamie Nau: Yeah, that'd be great.
So it was about 15 years ago that I became aware of emotional magnetism and what was happening at the time was, I had just launched e-gaming in Canada. We had never had e-gaming in Canada before. It was a big project. I left my six-figure income paying job, and I decided to spend more time with my children and have more balance in my life.
[00:06:05] So I opened a business in my … I guess I should be careful about how I say it. I opened a marketing consultancy in my bedroom. Ok. Let's be clear. So anyways I opened up this consultancy and then I realized, you know, okay, I said to my kids, let's do an “in and out” sign. Let's put it on mommy's door, and mommy's open for business.
[00:06:25] And it was all very exciting–a lot of people are doing it right now. The trouble was, I didn't know how to sell. I knew how to market, and I knew how to get the message across and motivate people to act. But I wasn't a really good salesperson, so I started researching sales techniques.
[00:06:41] This is where this path began. So I started looking, I'm a big fan of, I don't think good ideas die. Right?
I just think that they're there, and they're repurposed and they're evolved. So I started digging deeper into the fifties and the sixties and started looking for sales techniques that were in basements of used bookstores and stuff like that.
[00:07:05] And I came across this emotional appeal theory, and this is something that was developed in the sixties. There’s lots of research behind it. And essentially their thesis is: We are all motivated by one of four emotional needs that drive all our decisions in life. And so not just in your personal life, but your career, your hobbies, every single decision you make.
[00:07:28] And so this really resonated with me. I still remember reading the book and having a glass of wine. I'm sitting there, and I devoured this book in one sitting. And I remember being on fire as I went into client meetings the next day and starting to use this stuff right. Thinking, I gotta figure out what their emotional magnet is.
[00:07:46] And it just had my brain on fire. And as a marketer, and those marketers who are listening to this, you need to understand this quickly because every message that we see, there's emotional magnet messaging in it, right?
[00:08:00] I started using these magnets in my messaging and in my marketing with my clients and in the sales process, and I quickly moved my business from the bedroom marketing consultancy, to a top-100, fastest-growing company in British Columbia, and an agency of eight.
It was proof that this works; when you connect to someone's emotional need, you have an authentic connection with them. They're more motivated to listen to you and to act. So that's how it all kind of came about.
[00:08:37] I created an acronym to make it easier for people to remember the four magnets. So it's SAVE, S - A - V - E, safety, achievement, value, and experience. I like to think of it as like a four lane highway, and I mentioned this in the book; all of us are driving on these four-lane highways: safety, achievement, value, and experience.
[00:09:02] And sometimes we'll swerve, right? We'll go from one lane to another. But typically we tend to go and drive in just one lane or maybe two, and that's what drives our decisions. So I also use an example of, if you're driving along a road on a highway and you see a billboard and you're just kinda like, meh.
[00:09:20] And you drive along, you see another one and another one, and then finally one actually grabs your attention and you pay attention to that message. And the question is, why did that message land with you and the others didn’t? Maybe you're going too fast, but it's that message that connected with your emotional need. It's your magnet that was activated. And this happens consciously and unconsciously.
[00:09:44] Jody Grunden: So, with the DIsC profile, the way I look at it is, there's a quick way of self diagnosing yourself. Right? You hop on an elevator. On a DIsC profile, the D personality is gonna be closing the elevator as quickly as possible.
[00:09:57] The C personality is counting the people in the elevator. The S personality is holding the button open for that person coming, and then the I is talking to everybody. When you think of that and put everyone in that type of perspective, you can really quickly determine, “oh, that's probably me.”
[00:10:13] It might not be exact, but that's probably where I fall. Based on the four that you've just mentioned, is there an easy analysis? I know you've got a quiz in the book and everything that kind of goes through and identifies it, but is there an easy analysis that everybody listening could figure out, “I'm a safety, or I'm a value, or I'm an achievement.”
[00:10:33] Sandy Gerber: Jody, the thing is, they could do it just by listening to this podcast. This plays out everywhere in your life. So you've got listeners right now that are like, “Okay, which magnet am I?”
All right, let's play. Right? So safety. If you're motivated by safety, then you wanna know a bunch of things about this emotional magnetism stuff. Is it easy to pick up these skills really fast? How much security is this gonna give me? Is there structure? Is this book organized? Is it an easy read? Can I use this with my family? How's this gonna help me in my life? So that's safety.
[00:11:12] Jody Grunden: That would not be me.
[00:11:13] Jamie Nau: You can't tell people yet because you and I are gonna guess what each other’s is once she's done walking through these. That's my favorite part of the book; we talk about “how do you have to listen to try to suit other people?” And Jody and I have worked with each other enough, so after you're done describing them, I want Jody and I to try to guess each other’s.
Sandy Gerber: So for safety, people are looking at structure, schedule. They do not like change. They want boundaries. They wanna make sure that things are self preservation and their specialized skills.
[00:11:42] Okay, achievement listeners, out there. So you're trying to figure out, “Is my magnet achievement?” So you're interested in, “Who the heck is this person talking? What has she done to prove this theory? What kind of awards has she earned? How did she take her business from her bedroom to a top 100?”
[00:12:03] Like that stuff is what you're paying attention to and that's what's motivating you. How can this practice of emotional magnetism help you achieve your goals? Because you're naturally a competitor. You're naturally really wanting that recognition and competition. So that's achievement.
[00:12:21] Next is value. So the value people are like, “Oh, for goodness sake, get to the point already, Sandy. I just don't wanna waste my time here.” So it's about maximizing your time and your money–making sure that there's a return on your investment. These people wanna know if they're gonna spend 45 minutes to an hour with us, they better get a credit from it, or they wanna make sure that they get value from this time.
[00:12:40] It's also not just about money and time; it's also about, y”How can they create a legacy? How can this help them in their relationships for the future? And also how can they prevent waste?” So there's a bunch in my book about value.
[00:12:56] And then the last one is experience. So, I have an inkling here, but I am motivated by experience. Experience is really people that are interested in learning new things. They're coming onto podcasts. They're coming onto your awesome show to learn how to evolve themselves, to grow their business, to advance into virtual CFO, right?
[00:13:13] How do they actually use your systems and be better? And these people like change; they just cannot stand monotony and are very creative. Essentially, they want to know what's coming in the future.
These are the people that are lining up for the iPhone before it's even open, right? And name their company next.
[00:13:36] Jody Grunden: So, that being said, Jamie …
[00:13:41] Jamie Nau: So, my guess for Jody is … I knew I was gonna be on this podcast with him, so I think there's two that are pretty close, but I'm guessing you are over 50% experience and then your next is achievement. What was your experience?
[00:13:52] Jody Grunden: It was high-like 60, 65%. I'd have to go back and look. Then, it was definitely achievement; value and safety way down there. Yeah. Jamie, I think you are experience as well. I would say experience and then I'm gonna say achievement being number two as well. Yeah.
[00:14:17] Jamie Nau: Actually, safety was number two for me. I was surprised by that. I thought I was achievement; there were some things about the achievement where I read like, “Oh, that's totally me.” But no, somehow safety came up so, Experience was 60%.
[00:14:32] Sandy Gerber: Well, that makes a lot of sense to me. Even just meeting you through this experience, right? We're having an experience here. I asked you guys, “How do you want this to go? And you're like, Let's just have some fun. Let's just have a conversation.” Okay, check–experience. But you know what's amazing is that you can quickly self assess.
[00:14:47] To your point, Jody, people know what their magnet is. The trouble is, they don't communicate that to people. So, you start a relationship, even at work, and you find something about them adorable. And, then, over time you find it annoying, right?
[00:15:03] Because you're like, “This is not what I signed up for.” It's because they're motivated by an emotional magnet, and you guys haven't chatted about it. It works in the workplace and at home. Here’s an example. My fiance, he's motivated by safety and value, and I'm experience and achievement.
[00:15:19] So a Friday rolls around, and I want to go to the restaurant down the block. I want to have an experience. I've worked really hard all week, and he wants to just come in, kick his shoes off and watch Netflix. So, something's predictable and secure. So we have to compromise.
[00:15:34] And because of that, we eliminate a lot of fights because we know in the work environment, when you're working with clients, it's really important to figure this out. Because really communication's the undercurrent of every relationship. Most of us haven't been taught how to communicate effectively.
[00:15:51] So that was part of my passion behind this project. I started uncovering more about myself, learning about these… there's 16 communication blockers that we don't even know we're using that break our connection with people. I really wanted to make sure people knew that, and they could start learning a bit more about how to make true connections with people in their life at work and home.
[00:16:12] Jody Grunden: Oh, for sure.
Jamie Nau: I think we've taken quite a few of these tests and these analyses, and that's one of the things that it always challenges you to do is try to–figure out the people you're working with, and I'd say yours has given the best path. Your book has given the best path to figure that out.
[00:16:27] So, as I was reading it, I was like, “Okay, what is my wife? That was easy. What is Adam, the other co-founder of Summit, I know exactly who he is. Or what is Kelly like? I was able to go through people and identify them.
I started thinking through my clients, and I think that as a service provider to be able to do that and say, “Oh, this person is motivated by this; this is gonna make it a lot easier to work through.” And I know you went through the example in your book of working with a salesperson and how to identify what's gonna get them excited. You talked about that in the book, and I think that's really important when it comes to any kind of client services, knowing your customer, knowing who you're working with.
[00:17:01] Sandy Gerber: A hundred percent. I mean, when you think about whether you are in the sales cycle or whether you're in your service, it's really important. You're always asking them… my question is, what does success look like for you? Give them an open-ended question, and then start listening for those cues and clues, those words that they're using.
[00:17:16] Are they gonna say that it's the timeline, right? This really matters, and or your team dynamic, how you integrate with the team, or the fact that you're gonna have excellent reporting, or, in this case, proactive analysis on the balance sheet or anything like that, right? So you start getting these little nuggets; the more you're curious and asking, and most importantly, shut up and listen, right?
[00:17:37] Listen to that information, and then you're starting to filter, “Okay, wait a minute. This is where I think we're going and this is what's important to them and what they emotionally need for them to feel successful with the project.”
There's other things you can do, too, besides the cues and clues in the book. What I used to do in my agency, I would take a list of things that were the four emotional magnets, and I'd say to my client on this list, identify them in order of priorities. And immediately I can tell their magnet. So there's little things you can do that help you understand who you're dealing with.
Jody Grunden: Oh, that's great. You could probably do that in the onboarding process. That’s a good idea.
[00:18:18] Sandy Gerber: Yeah. And, Jody, even in the hiring process, right? I was listening to the podcast you guys did about culture and hiring.
Jody Grunden: You were the one listening to that?! I wondered about that!
[00:18:33] Sandy Gerber: It was me! I love your podcast. They're great. Even in the hiring process when you're hiring someone or even trying to engage them in the organization, everybody's individual, and they all have their magnets. So I had a team member that was motivated by achievement.
[00:18:48] Her promotion was critical. Her title was critical. Her office was critical. These were important things to keep her motivated in the business. I had another team member motivated by value, and she wanted to know that I actually valued her contribution to the business. That we were creating a legacy together, that she was getting compensated for her value.
[00:19:07] And safety. It was like, “I'm only working this hour to this hour. I wanna spend time with my family. I want processes, I want templates. I want structure.”
So it really does matter. Yeah. Like in
[00:19:19] Jody Grunden: I think where a lot of people go wrong is, they think that because they're that way, everybody shares that same value–everybody has that same emotional magnetism; everybody's a value person because I'm a value person, so everybody's gotta be a value person. Or I'm an experienced person, so everybody has to be an experienced person.
I think that's where a lot of people go wrong in relationships at work, whether it's in person or not. The psychologist that I am today would, would I be right on that?
[00:19:51] Sandy Gerber: Yeah, it's true, right? As people, we think we're the most important person, right? Yeah. We just think we're the most fascinating person, when really, what we need to do is shift. We need to shift to think about not what you're gonna do for them. But what they actually need you to do.
[00:20:07] And that's a big shift. And it's not just words. It really makes a difference when you start. I say in my book, become a detective. Try and figure this out. Be curious; what is it that these people truly need to be successful from you? And then start making sure that's a priority, Right?
[00:20:24] And in your communication, in your deliverables, you'll know. If you're going to buy a car and you say to the salesperson, “Here's what I want. I want a nice car, I want excellent new features, and I want it to be a pretty color.”
[00:20:40] Right. I'm just saying that; that's not what I would have to say. But, you know, for example. But then, the person starts selling you on those things, but it's not connecting because it's not getting to what I actually need. And what I need is, I need the car to have a really cool experience.
[00:21:00] I need to feel that this car encapsulates my achievements. Right? So the brand is important for me because I'm motivated by achievement and experience. And then also, I need to know that it's got all those self-driving things to make my experience even more fun in the car.
[00:21:16] So, I ended up with a Ford that self parks and my kids refer to it as mommy's magic car. So, those are the things that, once you focus on and shift from what they say they want to what they emotionally need, their emotional magnet, and you'll be able to connect way more.
[00:21:32] Jody Grunden: I guess if you were to take this even one step further; we have company retreats all the time.We have twice a year and, and we develop these really cool agendas and all that kind of stuff. Would you say that the proper way of doing that would be to, in some way, incorporate each one of those four emotional magnets inside the agenda? Not having it one way versus another, but making sure that you're touching base on all four of them in some manner?
[00:22:01] Sandy Gerber: Yeah, Jody, great question. Absolutely. So I've got a practice now where, if I'm creating marketing messaging or I'm doing a campaign, or I'm gonna write a letter, or I'm gonna do an event, I write S - A - V - E. And then I write, what are we doing to meet each of these needs? So to have a balanced, successful event, you need to have all four considered, and you have to deliver content on all of those.
[00:22:23] That comes down to your speakers on stage. You know, I'm usually hired because I have high energy, I have funny stories, and it's relevant, right? People can relate to that. But there's other people in the audience that want quick skills, right? They want, you know, achievement. They wanna know who the person is.
[00:22:38] What is the credibility of that person? Value. They wanna get something fun and quick out of the way, right? They wanna have something that's gonna actually be something they can take with them. Maybe a sheet or maybe a tangible piece they can take away with them. And then you've got experiences pretty, pretty obvious.
[00:22:52] But then you've got safety. Don't ask these people to stand up in the room and you and do something, right? They're not comfortable in that, right? So a lot of speakers make that mistake where they assume everybody stands up, everybody will do this or pull them up on the stage. You've got to play to the four emotional magnets to have the best results.
[00:23:09] Jamie Nau: It's interesting, Jody, how many times have you and Adam had the argument with me in the room where you want to make our retreats as fun as possible and everybody's going out to the bar, and Adam's like, “But we need to make sure we talk about the newest accounting principal out there.”
How many times have we had that argument in the seven years I've been working here?
[00:23:25] Jody Grunden: I've won every one of them. Our retreats are really fun. That's the achievement part of me.
[00:23:34] Sandy Gerber: But that's the thing, right? Like making sure for the people that they wanna actually learn, that they wanna get value out of it. So what you value and what other people value are clearly different. Right? Sure. There's four different emotional magnets.
[00:23:45] Jody Grunden: Absolutely. And so it's important to incorporate all four of those in really everything you do. That’s what I’m hearing from what you're saying.
[00:23:55] Sandy Gerber: Yeah. And then also, Jody, I was just gonna say that when you leave this, your listeners stop this podcast and you guys leave, you're gonna see messages throughout your day.
[00:24:13] Jody Grunden: Kind of switching gears from employees to clients, if I've got a stakeholder, what's the best approach with those folks?
[00:24:36] I try to identify their magnets quickly and hopefully I can. And then, from there, what do I do? Do I have to be fake? Because that's not me. What's the approach?
[00:24:51] Sandy Gerber: What I'd recommend there is, the first piece is uncovering it, right?
[00:24:56] Trying to figure out what their emotion magnet is, and we've talked about that. And then, the next piece is honoring and delivering on it. And that's where people fall apart, right? So essentially, it's one thing to get the sale; it's another to actually provide great service and have people refer you.
[00:25:10] So, what you need to do is be mindful of it. If their emotional magnet is value, then you need to demonstrate that continually through the project. If someone is motivated by safety, then you better have prepared, structured, scheduled, you know, all those things, and stayed proactive in your communication with them.
[00:25:26] And, depending on the project that you're doing, it's really important that it's always at the top of your mind throughout the entire life cycle with your clients. Remember that if you are in the sales process with them, they are looking at other people and comparing you, right?
[00:25:44] And at the end of the day, we work with people we like and people that are like us. So that connection has to happen at the beginning, and you maintain that in an authentic and a transparent way. You have to have integrity here, right? This isn't about manipulation. This is about making sure that you have honored what they need and you're delivering it.
[00:26:06] Jody Grunden: Yeah. Great point.
[00:26:07] Jamie Nau: I think you're very talented at telling the stories. So, I'd love for you to give an example of what you just talked about and how you've done that. Obviously you're in client service. I'd love to have a real life example from what you've been doing.
Sandy Gerber: Yeah, sure. So there's times where I could do it from my agency, as well. It might be more applicable here. So trying to get a sale; let's say you're doing an RFP. RFPs are pretty dry, right? But how do you stand apart in a structured environment like that so that you actually rise to the top of the pile in the criteria?
[00:26:44] Jody Grunden: Because you don't know the magnet that that person that's reading it has.
[00:26:49] Sandy Gerber: No, you don't. And so, what you have to do back to your previous point, Jody; you have to make sure all four are in there, right? If you're thinking from an RFP, for example, from a safety standpoint, you better follow their criteria. That's what they're marking you on–making sure that you're checking all those boxes and everything is done to their standards.
If it's achievement, they really wanna know what your accolades are. You have a page specially done for testimonials, social proof in there from customers that identify your credibility. We know how far that can go.
Then value, when you're looking at costs, they don't flip to the back. What I did differently with my clients is, I had it on the second page, which is very different from what people do because I want to make sure that they understand I don't have anything hidden here.
[00:27:36] There's no agenda other than I'm gonna share the facts here and then I'm gonna break them down in detail in this document. So, a second page, I was like, “Here's what you're signing up for. This is what the options are.” I provide them options so they don't feel cornered, and then essentially have that backup information.
[00:27:54] And then experience is really the whole packaging. And from a marketing standpoint, what can you do to really package that up to make it look good? I see so many documentations that just have lost the opportunity to brand it successfully, not just sexy graphics, right? To actually make that an experience when someone opens it. So, these are all the things that you can take into consideration during that process.
[00:28:15] Jody Grunden: Then on the follow up, let's say that we're kind of taking it through the journey of the sales process here. So the RFP, the follow up, you still don't know that person. You still don't know where they're at.
[00:28:27] And within the four, what's your cue? So you're having that conversation with them and they're asking about the RFP.
[00:28:36] Sandy Gerber: In the conversation that you have with him, if you don't know by this point, then you have specific questions you're asking to pull that out.
[00:28:43] In my book, I talk about how you can actually change some of your messages to appeal to a magnet. It can be the same question you're asking, but you change it to appeal to that magnet. And it's not hard to do; once you do this a couple times, it becomes second nature.
[00:29:02] For example, if you get an inkling that the person is saying, it's really about the timeline. we have to get this done by this time. It's all about that right now, and I need to make sure that you're gonna integrate with my team really well, and there's a good dynamic with my team.
Then we're talking about talking about value and we're talking about experience, right?
[00:29:17] Those are the kinds of pieces that you're picking up on. Then, near the end of that process, you're coming back to them and you're saying in those words, “So I just wanna make sure you've received value from this process, right?” You're actually dropping those words. Because words are so powerful, right?
[00:29:33] They're just so powerful. And then, remember what I was saying about being preoccupied? You guys are on podcasts like this all the time with guests. Now that I know you like experience, you're like, “Okay, this better be fun. I wanna have an entertaining experience.”
But if you were safety, you'd be like, “How's the recording sounding right now?
[00:29:50] Have we captured good sound? You're thinking about that stuff. If it's value, you're thinking, are the listeners getting value from this? Or What question should I ask next? So it's always the power of words and tweaking them to connect to someone's magnet.
[00:30:26] Jody Grunden: Continuing through that process, you've gone through it, you've determined that maybe experience their main touchpoint. So you're bringing that up during the conversation and then it's, I guess it's important at that point, because now you've accepted the offer, they've accepted it, whatever it is, whether it's a client or an employee or whatever, now you're going through the onboarding process.
[00:30:47] I think it's really important at that point to let everybody on the team know what their main driver is so that they don't have to then self identify and go through that same process.
[00:31:00] Once they’re a client, play on that a little bit. So, we're meeting with clients on a regular basis; maybe we've got a year-long project, we're meeting with them weekly or monthly or whatever, how does the conversation start with each of the different ones?
[00:31:17] So, if you're a value person versus safety and so forth, how does that conversation start? Or how should I start that conversation?
[00:31:25] Sandy Gerber: Yeah, we brought up a really good point that, by the time you get to either the end of the sales cycle or you're in service delivery, what you're providing, you should have this conversation; from what I understand from your needs, and you don't have to say emotional because some people get freaked out by that word, but, from what I understand from your needs, I'm sensing that this, this, and this are your priorities. Is that correct?
[00:31:43] So then, you get confirmation that those are the most important. That's what you do. With some of my clients, I'm pretty transparent, so I just said, “I believe there's four emotional magnets. This is what mine are, what are yours?” And they'll share it. People can self-assess this right away.
[00:31:59] So now, you've got more of an authentic conversation. It's easier to have conversations going forward. I have this example with a client, they're all about value. And so the negotiation on the contract was painful; it just was painful because that's what they're motivated by and they wanted to make sure that they got right down to the cents that they wanted. I was able to have empathy for them and not be frustrated by it, because I know that's what they are and what they need.
[00:32:25] So it kind of clears the frustration that you usually have. And then, every client meeting we had, if we went to a restaurant or to go somewhere, in the afternoon, I'd be like, “Well, let's go for dinner.” And they're like, “Let's go for happy hour.” And I'd be like, Oh, okay. They wanna go to happy hour because they get a deal.
[00:32:42] So this is the thing; it just shows up in every decision. And you'll get clients that will say, “Okay, yep. Just send it over. I'm gonna send you the email. That's my approval. Well, they're not value, right? They're basically, let's get going, experience. I wanna get going; what's next?
[00:32:59] You know, that kind of stuff. So you pick up on these things pretty quickly once it acts like a filter for you. And then, you just make choices to always connect to that. What it does is it provides us a really transparent, authentic connection. And you and people just get happier because you're accepting them for who they are. And this is for your personal life and professional life.
[00:33:21] Jody Grunden: So the worst thing you could do is go against their magnet, right? So that person that you mentioned who wanted to do happy hour, if you kind of cornered him and talked him into doing the dinner, that's probably the wrong thing to do, right? Because you noticed that.
[00:33:36] Because you've noticed that?
[00:33:37] Sandy Gerber: Yeah because they're thinking, “How much is this meal gonna cost me? How much time do I have to spend here?” Instead of just addressing their need, which is, “you know what, I'd like to get a deal on the cost of this meal.” So that's just one example.
[00:33:51] But I think there's two things I always say, don't assume anyone's emotional magnet. Right? Never do that because we don't know; everybody knows what they are and sometimes they're different at work than they are at home. Right. So, you know, we put on air sometimes at work. So it depends on how honest, and authentic that environment is in that culture.
[00:34:10] So one thing is, never assume it. And second is, just ask questions to discover it and then confirm. So I use a technique called EARS; it’s an acronym. Sounds like I like a lot of acronyms, but these do work for me. So EARS is essentially what you wanna do is encourage someone to talk.
[00:34:27] You're Encouraging by giving them body language that's respectful. You're focused on them, and you're encouraging them by nodding, like you're doing right now. You're ready for me to continue saying stuff. And then A is for Ask; ask them the question. Ask them questions to discover what their magnets are, and then most people stop there.
[00:34:46] And there's two other steps. The third one is Reflect. So this is what you can do to really make someone feel heard and and especially in the sales process; you have asked these questions, and then you want to take some of that information and you wanna reflect it back to the person and say, “If I heard you correctly, if I understand your needs correctly, this is what you want.” Is that correct?
[00:35:07] And it gives them a chance to qualify and clarify that comment. And I find 99 times out of 100, they always come back with more information. That's helpful. And then the final one is to say, “Okay, now that I understand your needs, the scope of this project or what we're gonna do next week or a month from now, or year from now.
[00:35:27] I just wanna Summarize what our action steps are. And what happens is, you go through the steps; is everything on the same page? So now you're a team, right? Just in those four steps, you've worked through communication, you've identified their needs, you've confirmed what they need, and what you've reflected.
[00:35:45] And then you summarize, collectively together, what you're gonna do to get there.
[00:35:48] Jody Grunden: So, you went through all that yourself. So, let’s say you and I know about emotional magnetism at all, and you're trying to get on my level. Isn't that kind of a one way street?
[00:36:02] Are you now sacrificing what feeds you emotionally? If you're pushing my values and you're coming to my values, if I'm a value person.
[00:36:12] Sandy Gerber: No, I don't think so. Because what you're doing is like, the way I present myself is just the way I am. Look, this is what I need. You're also hiring them, right?
[00:36:20] So you're looking at, “do I wanna have this experience? I'm motivated by experience and achievement. Do I wanna have this experience? Am I gonna actually feel like I'm accomplishing good goals and creating success with these people, right? So you're also thinking about what you need, never pushing your stuff on a person, it's another way to understand people and then communicate what they need.
[00:36:41] There's just so many times we're having conversations where we're either not listening or we're just not honoring what other people need. And so I think this is really critical. Never push what you want and your agenda on those people, because, essentially, you're being of service to them, right?
[00:36:58] You're just qualifying and clarifying that what they need and you understand and you're delivering it.
[00:37:03] Jody Grunden: You address it in the book, but kind if you could re-address it. So let's say that you've read, you love the book, and you want your spouse to read the book, and go through that process. How do you get that to happen? ?
[00:37:20] Sandy Gerber: So I get this question all the time. Because people are like, “this is amazing, honey.” So it's, again, you can't push stuff on people, right? They're going to get there on their own. One of the things I say is, just share what you found about yourself, right?
[00:37:34] So if you become a little bit vulnerable and open yourself up to the people around you at work and at home and share, “Hey, I read this really cool book,” or “I did this amazing quiz and I learned stuff about myself. Can I share that with you?” They're gonna wanna learn stuff about themselves as well.
[00:37:47] It's typically how it goes, unless they're not ready. And if they're not ready, they're not ready. Right? I have two sisters and they don't read non-fiction. I'm a non-fiction junkie. I love reading non-fiction. I love learning and I love learning stuff that I can use right away. But my sisters are readers of fiction, and they just wanna escape.
[00:38:06] So, I'm never gonna push non-fiction on them, especially since this is classified as self-help. People go, “Oh, I don't need help. Don't put this on me.” But it's really about learning about yourself. And the best way to do that is to share with people what you learned. To talk about it.
[00:38:23] So many people have come to me afterwards and said, “I wish I knew this before because I've been married for 10 years. I didn't realize that he was value. I just thought he was cheap.” Or, “I just thought she was a workaholic. I didn't know she's achievement.”
[00:38:40] So we've already created these labels for people that we work with and live with. I did a TED Talk on this because I really feel like people need to label with care, and they start with these labels that “Oh, they're this way.”
And then, over time, in our relationships at work and at home, we tend to go over our own chatter in our head about what those labels are, and they're not necessarily ever positive.
[00:39:04] We need to be mindful of what is really motivating these people in our lives? And if we can just classify them before, it gives you this really cool empathy where you're like, “Okay, that's just how you show up in the world. And, I accept that it can be annoying at times, but now I accept it.”
[00:39:23] So I'll give you an example of a story. I don't think I had this one in the book, but the other night, I was tired. It was a long week. I came home, and I said to my other half, “I don't feel like cooking tonight. Do you feel like cooking?” He said, no. I was like, Okay, great experience, right?
[00:39:37] We're gonna order in. So he says, Just pull up the app. So I pull up the app and I looked through our food options and I said, Well, what do you want? He said, You just pick, go ahead. You know what I like. I was like, Okay. So I scanned through, and I don't know if you guys have Freshy down there, but basically it's kind of a healthy option. I'm scanning through and I'm like, Oh, he likes Freshy.
[00:40:00]So I say, How about Freshy? We’ll get those burritos. And he is like, “No.” And I'm looking at him like he's from Mars, because I know he likes these things. So I'm like, What the heck? And then all of a sudden I get a download and I'm like, Oh, okay.
[00:40:13] His emotional magnet is value, and Freshy is three blocks away. And so he's like, “There's no way I'm gonna pay for something that's only three blocks away.” right? So it diminished a whole opportunity to have a fight. And instead, I just kind of chuckled, gave him a kiss and said, “Oh, by the way, honey, just how far does it have to be for me to get delivery to the door?”
[00:40:35] He's like, “Five blocks.”. And we're good. So these are the kinds of conversations that you have once you know your magnets, it just opens up this honesty and quite a lot of humor, actually, and acceptance. And you know, why I wrote the book in its entirety and why it took me, you know, nine years to do it is that I really believe that this is gonna help people, and it's gonna help people to create more understanding, more love, more acceptance in our world, and we really need that right now.
I say to people, I'm creating a love train. Because the more people that know their magnets and share them, the more people that they connect with, the more relationships we potentially save, and ultimately the more love we have..
[00:41:17] I invite everybody who's listening, get on the love train; figure out your emotional magnet, share it, and let's help people be more heard and understood.
[00:41:25] Jody Grunden: Sounds great. Love it. Like I said, I read it twice, and it probably won't be the last time. Definitely sharing it with the team.
[00:41:32] And my spouse is actually starting to read it now. So I talked her into it.
[00:41:39] Sandy Gerber: How did you do that? Well, what's her magnet? What do you think? Oh, I guess we shouldn't say that. You're not supposed to.
[00:41:45] Jody Grunden: I’m not gonna assume until she gets through it, but I got a really good idea. It seems like it's not the same as mine.
[00:41:51] So it's different from mine. A lot of this, it's kind of unfolding in front of your eyes when you read the book. It’s a great book, Emotional Magnetism. Sandy, last thoughts?
[00:42:05] Sandy Gerber: First of all, thank you for having me here. It's a privilege, and I'm just so happy to be able to share this with more people.
[00:42:12] Do yourself a favor and understand what you need, right? Any of the listeners, this doesn't only just benefit you personally; it really impacts on your professional life and dealing with people at work, especially now that we're working remotely as well. It's hard to make connections, and so this is the way to do it.
[00:42:28] There's a quiz on my site; the book is available everywhere and there's also an audio book for you multitasker, value people out there. I had a lot more fun with the audio book. I have some funny little quirks in there, too. So, a giant thank you to you guys for all you're doing and the fact that you're on a mission to transform what accounting is like is just so compelling. So thank you so much.
[00:42:51] Jody Grunden: Thanks, Sandy. This has been great. Had a great time and I hope we get a ton of downloads on this because this has been one of my favorites for sure.
[00:42:59] Sandy Gerber: Oh, lovely. Thanks so much, Jody.