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Adapting to a Hybrid Work Environment with Tammy Bjelland

Published by Summit Marketing Team on 24 Aug 2023

The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 95


Joey Kinney and Jody Grunden interview Tammy Bjelland, founder and CEO of Workplaceless, to discuss the most important lessons for managers to improve engagement with their hybrid team. Tammy emphasizes the importance of intentionality and transparency, as well as the need to shift values to offer workplace flexibility. She also explains the importance of asynchronous communication and offers tips for managers to develop their skills through training, coaching, and mentorship.



Joey (00:00:15) - Hey, y'all. On today's show, we're going to talk with Tammy Yelland of Workplace Lists about the current state of the hybrid work environment, tips for managers to improve engagement with their remote teams, and our favorite software tools to make hybrid work more successful. We had a great time chatting with Tammy, and stay tuned until the end to hear about Jody Grundy's most unusual job. Enjoy the show!

Welcome back to another episode of the Virtual CPA Success Show. I'm your host for today, Joey Kenney, and I'm joined by Jodi Grunin. Hello, Jodi. How are you doing?

Jodi (00:00:58) - I'm doing well, Joey. Excited for our guest today. We'll be diving into the topic of hybrid workforces and discussing strategies to improve the hybrid situation and the future of remote work.

Joey (00:01:03) - Absolutely! Our guest today is Tammy Beland. Tammy, would you like to introduce yourself to the audience?

Tammy (00:01:09) - Thank you for having me. I'm Tammy Beland, the founder and CEO of Workplace Lis. We specialize in remote work and leadership skills training. Our goal is to help organizations improve their effectiveness in operating in a remote or hybrid model.

Joey (00:01:21) - So my first question here, and I've been thinking about this a lot. We often hear people talking about running a hybrid workplace, and sometimes they treat it as if it's the same as a virtual or in-person setup. But I believe there are significant differences that separate the successful hybrid workforces from those who are just getting by. What are you seeing in terms of that from a structure perspective?

Tammy (00:01:46) - Yeah, the main difference is intentionality. So really great virtual teams, whether they're fully remote or hybrid, they are very intentional about making sure that the culture they have, as well as any outcomes they want for the organization, are achievable by all employees regardless of their location.

Tammy (00:02:09) - They're really thinking about workflows, structures, and processes that enable everyone to succeed regardless of location. Instead of just saying, "Okay, everybody can work from wherever now, and we're just going to asse that everything is going to happen organically." So the big difference is that intentionality and investing resources to ensure that these new processes and ways of working actually work for everybody. Resources can take many forms. The best forward-thinking organizations dedicate an entire function, department, or at least one role to contemplate new ways of working and what that means for the organization.

Joey (00:02:58) - So you can't just be comfortable with the status quo. You have to be comfortable as an organization saying that the future won't look like the past. Would you agree with that?

Tammy (00:03:10) - I would agree with that. The companies that will succeed in the long term, even in the next five years, are the ones currently questioning their existing ways of working and exploring how they can adapt to become more resilient, flexible, and adaptable.

Tammy (00:03:29) - Shifting values are shaping the future of work, particularly in terms of workplace flexibility. Employees desire and demand flexibility, and this is influencing employers' decisions on benefits packages and even their overall structure. Valuing flexibility, employers must consider how they can shift to provide that flexibility.

Jody (00:04:03) - Hey, Tammy, why do you think, you know, we've been in the row for ten plus years and have really kind of developed our strategies along the way and have been very successful, low turnover for the longest period of time. And then you got these companies that came out of the gate from Covid and some of them successful, and then some of them are like, "This is the worst experience ever" and they're trying to force their people to go back to the office. You know, what do you think some are succeeding in and some are failing, I guess, in that regard?

Tammy (00:04:35) - Yeah, I think there are lots of reasons, but my hypothesis is that the ones that are failing are the ones that are not truly listening to their employees.

Tammy (00:04:45) - Right? So it's one thing to fail or think that remote work didn't work or it sucked, right? You know, during the pandemic because you were working during the pandemic and you didn't have any opportunity to connect with anyone beyond your home. And so, of course, any work situation in that particular context is going to be less than ideal. So, you know, for me, I would question nber one, what are the metrics by which they are measuring success or failure for remote work? And a lot of it is, I just feel like we worked better in the office, right? It's a lot. It's not based on any kind of objective metric. And then they're not really asking the right questions or listening to employees when it comes to what they really want. Because, you know, study after study shows that employees do want flexibility. They don't want to be forced back into the office five days a week. And so there's a real disconnect between companies thinking that there's one right way for innovation and success.

Tammy (00:05:55) - And then employees are saying another thing, and then the data actually, when it comes to showing how you can achieve business outcomes, working in a flexible model, you can achieve them. And so there's a real disconnect between what employers are feeling and what they want to maintain when it comes to the status quo, and then what employees want, and then what the research shows or what the data show, you know, can actually help enable the achievement of those outcomes in a flexible work environment.

Jody (00:06:32) - Do you think some of that is due to them wanting to exert control over their team? You know, the fact that they can't see their people, you know, that all of a sudden means they're not working? Or yes, absolutely. Try to call somebody and they don't pick up right away or they're on a Zoom call. They're not answering right away. So automatically the assption is they must not be working.

Jody (00:06:53) - Is that what you see at all or do you think--

Tammy (00:06:55) - Well, every time I see anyone quoted or had like say anything regarding, "I need them in the office because I need to know that they're being productive," that to me tells me more about their management style than anything about the productivity levels of their employees. It just means to me that you can only rely on one input to gauge whether somebody is achieving what they're supposed to achieve. And that's just like a visual. You need to be able to see them in their seat, but you don't know if those people are actually working. They could be in the office, they could be shopping online, they could be just not making effective use of time. Guaranteed. They're all on Zoom calls, right? So they can easily do that from home. So it absolutely is a question of control. And then the other factor that I don't think we're talking about enough is real estate.

Tammy (00:07:53) - You know, the companies have spent how many millions and millions and millions of dollars on real estate. They have long-term leases in many cases. They've invested a lot of money in redesigning workspaces that are optimized for collaboration, etc. And so they don't want to waste the money that they've invested in real estate. And I don't think that we're talking enough about that being a huge driver in that push to return to the office. Because when you look at the actual reasons that they're telling people to come back, it's a little shaky, those reasons.

Jody (00:08:36) - Oh yeah, you know, because it's kind of funny you mentioned real estate, Tammy, because when we first went remote back in 2012, 2013, 2014, that time frame, a lot of it was the fact that we were kind of held hostage to our real estate. And at that time, I said, you know, as an accountant, I thought, hey, this is everybody should own their own real estate and blah, blah, blah.

Jody (00:08:58) - And then what happened was we started making decisions on how many office spaces we had left, whether we hire that person now or later, or we put people in cubes, or how do we manage around the office space? Now it's kind of the opposite, where now they get an abundance of office space and they're making the same decisions, but they're basing it on that. So it's kind of, it's really kind of turned completely from ten years ago to now, same situation. They're letting the office dictate their...

Tammy (00:09:31) - And I do, I mean, you know, real estate, commercial real estate is an important part of the economy. So I'm not going to, you know, say everybody give up their office leases. You know, I think that could have some repercussions that might be less than ideal. But when it comes to offering workplace flexibility, I would just question the reasoning.

Tammy (00:09:55) - You know, I would prefer companies to be transparent about the reasons. Right. For rescinding any kind of flexible work options because to me, veiling it with, you know, "we care about productivity" and "we care about culture," that to me is not genuine. And that means employees are just not likely to trust any kind of decision that the employer might make when it comes to shifting their policies. Employers have every right to do whatever they want. A company can do whatever they want. They can offer remote work, they cannot offer remote work. But they need to be aware that employees and the workforce are smart, and we're going to make decisions based on alignment with our values. And if we value transparency and flexibility, we're not likely to look positively on a company that is not genuine.

Jody (00:11:03) - Yeah, Tammy, you mentioned trust. You know, Joe, I'd like to kind of pass this to you. I think trust is like, you know, control. But I think it comes down to trust. You know, if you have a really trusting company where trust is a big part of what you do, I think remote works fine. But if it's not a trust where you don't trust your people, you don't trust that they're going to be doing the work, I think that's where it might start to fall apart. Kind of asking you the same question there. I know you've got experience outside of working with Anders here. What's your thought about that coming into this environment and maybe an environment you had prior to this?

Joey (00:11:42) - Well, I do think it comes down to trust. And, Tammy, you mentioned earlier that it comes down to how you measure trust, right? When you were mentioning those types of managers who rely on that one type of validation of their skills as managers.

Joey (00:12:00) - I went to the same thought, which was, okay, that means you're not a great manager because there's so much more to being a good manager than just making sure your attendance is perfect. It comes down to empowering your teams. It comes down to creating systems and processes that allow people to have feedback but also have constant connection. We used a tool here in the office that, as we've grown, we've used a little bit less, but it's still there. It's called Syko. And you have the ability to see where everybody in your office is. And I loved that tool because I could see Jody and Adam having a conversation in Jody's office, or I could see my senior talking with her integrity person in her office. And I know that people are collaborating in that respect, even though we're hundreds of miles away, in certain cases, a whole continent away. And I never felt micromanaged in this. The expectations were very clear.

Joey (00:12:53) - There are certain deliverables that you need to hit. And Jody and Adam were great about saying, "We don't really care how you get there. You just need to get there." And I love that it gave me authority and autonomy over my decision-making, which was wonderful.

Tammy (00:13:06) - Yeah. But you know, you mentioned something that I just want to comment on about not being a great manager. And I think that so many managers, unfortunately, are not prepared. It's not that they don't have the capacity to be a great manager, but they don't have the resources. They've not been given the training, they've not been given the mentorship and coaching, and they've definitely not been given the time to learn new skills and implement them in a way that is going to be recognized and rewarded. A manager who is managing 20 direct reports and is pulled in many different directions, if they take time to become the best remote manager they can, are they going to be rewarded for that or penalized? So it's really important for companies to prioritize developing the best managers they can, and that comes with providing training, coaching, mentorship, and time.

Tammy (00:14:13) - And I can't reiterate that enough because we're just not given enough time to learn in our jobs.

Jody (00:14:21) - Yeah, talking about managing, we've recently gone from a fully distributed company where we didn't have an office. We were spread all over the United States, mostly in the United States and some in Canada, and some in other countries. And now we're working with a company we merged with that was fully brick and mortar and is trying to go remote. They're doing the 2 to 3 day in the office and then out of the office type of experiment there. When we merge our two groups together, we've got a group of around 18 folks and then a group of around 50 folks that are fully remote, and we're merging them together. How do you manage that? If you've always been the brick and mortar type where you've had the office and you see other people there most of the time, and then you've got these folks coming in who aren't even going to be in the office.

Jody (00:15:18) - How does a manager manage that so it's fair? Fairness has to come in there, right?

Tammy (00:15:25) - Oh, yeah. You need to you need to make sure that everyone can achieve the same outcomes, you know, in no matter where they're located. So the first step that I would recommend is really looking at those performance metrics. How are you measuring performance of each of those individuals and really auditing them and saying and realizing I'm using a word audit with, you know, financial professionals or so like that has a, you know, baggage, you know, but like really assess, you know, your performance metrics, , to make sure that they're achievable and measurable, whether that employee is remote or in person. So if you're using any kind of metric that is like based on presence or, you know, anything that could be coded as in-person, that needs to be adjusted so that it is equitable. , so that's the first thing that I would suggest. And then so that's performance metrics.

Tammy (00:16:27) - The second thing. Is. You know, I would really recommend looking at your culture and how how you're enabling employees at all locations, how you're enabling them to really connect with one another and to connect with the organization and the mission. So, you know, what kind of rituals did you have in office? How could you make sure that the purpose of that ritual can be replicated online? And I'm not saying that, you know, if you have a happy hour in person, you should that translates exactly to a virtual happy hour, because often, you know, I think that's that's the easy default way to, you know, translate in-person culture to virtual culture. And that doesn't always work because virtual happy hours are kind of. You know, not as fun as you know.

Jody (00:17:23) - Exactly.

Joey (00:17:25) - At the end of the day, you're still drinking alone at your convenience at this time.

Tammy (00:17:28) - Exactly. Yeah. You're basically, like, encouraging what you want to discourage, which is, you know. So really thinking about how you like, what's the what's the feeling that we get when we are, you know, having that happy hour and how can we replicate something like that in a way where everybody can participate that wants to and you have that end result be the same.

Tammy (00:17:54) - So first thing, performance metrics. Second thing is, you know, what are the examples, the manifestations of culture and how does everyone participate in those? , and then the third thing I would say is really look at your like default methods for getting work done and office based managers and office based employees of all levels, I would say usually default to some sort of meeting to get work done. And that is, you know, I would say pretty true in most organizations, you know, in general, , it's just easier, you know, we have a decision to make. Let's like, let's meet later this week and let's hash this out and let's make a decision or, you know, let's brainstorm some ideas for the retreat for next year. , let's all have a meeting like the default is to schedule a meeting. And that is a very office centric method of getting work done because you're excluding the people who then can't be in the meeting, whether that's because of scheduling, whether that's because of location, whether that's because of, you know, they're just not able to join.

Tammy (00:19:12) - So a much more inclusive approach to work and especially for a manager that's used to having everyone around them all the time, it's much more inclusive to adopt more async first practices so that you can include everyone in that process, regardless of where they're located and regardless of what their schedule is.

Jody (00:19:36) - Can you talk a little bit more about that, the async communication, the difference between synchronous sync and async and yeah, why you prefer one versus the other?

Tammy (00:19:45) - Yeah. So synchronous and asynchronous communication. There's lots of ways to categorize communication types, but the difference between sync and async is that synchronous communication happens simultaneously. So this conversation between all of us right now is asynchronous, is an example of synchronous communication, async or asynchronous communication is any communication that does not happen simultaneously. So there's an inherent delay between the message being sent and the message being received, and then the reply, you know, getting sent. So in its ideal form, email is an example of asynchronous communication, right? I send the email and Jody might respond today or we might respond tomorrow or you might not respond, you know, depending on what the purpose of the message was.

Tammy (00:20:35) - But so the reason that it's important to understand this difference is to think about how much time we spend during the workday on synchronous communication. So think about how many meetings you're in, right? How many phone calls you're in. And when you're in a meeting with five other people, with ten other people, that's not just an hour of company time. It's one hour times. However many people are there. So it's, you know, ten hours of company time in a meeting. And is that the best use of company time, right. To accomplish that particular purpose? , so in most companies there's an imbalance of synchronous and asynchronous. The default is usually sync communication to get anything done. , and in teams that are very adaptable and can and can effectively employ people from multiple time zones and, you know, with different schedules, those are the teams that adopt an async first approach which shifts that default from synchronous to asynchronous. So instead of saying, let's schedule a meeting to talk about this, it's how can we do this asynchronously? How can we get input from multiple people? You know, on their own time so that they've had a chance to think and contribute thoughtfully to this idea.

Tammy (00:22:10) - So it's really just shifting that default and thinking about how can we structure work so that it allows for more people to participate in a way that, you know, gives amplifies voices that you wouldn't necessarily hear from. And that allows a lot more flexibility for pretty much every single process you can think of. So in terms of decision making, you know, you can really reduce the amount of synchronous time needed to make a decision because you've really thoughtfully laid out each step of the process to ensure that as many people that need to be involved are involved and you are. Thinking more about the end. Objective instead of, you know, just defaulting to an easy meeting.

Jody (00:23:08) - Would you say it's a good idea to have a good balance between synchronous and asynchronous communication, or do you think one should outweigh the other?

Tammy (00:23:16) - So we talk a lot at workplaces about the balance of sync and async, and an async first approach does not mean async only. There's many opportunities or many situations in which a synchronous approach is best.

Tammy (00:23:29) - We've developed a framework called the Playlist Taxonomy, and this is a categorization of communication types or purposes and how easy they are to achieve asynchronously. So the bottom so the easiest to achieve async is informing. So if I have an update to share, you know, scheduling a synchronous meeting to share that update is not a good use of synchronous time, right? That can easily be shared asynchronously. The hardest type of communication to achieve async is connecting so developing trust, developing that, you know that psychological safety really developing social capital across the organization. It's very challenging to achieve completely async. You can incorporate certainly some async components there like sending messages. ET cetera. But to really develop a really strong connection with somebody else, you do need synchronous time. And the benefit of using a framework like that is that you can shift some of the processes or some of the time that you're spending in synchronous meetings that can be easily converted to async. So informing or collaborating, you can shift those meetings to async processes so you have more time for deep work.

Tammy (00:24:51) - So you can really focus on any kind of task that requires like, you know, a lot of focus. And you can also save more time for building those connections. So when you have a situation in which you've you found that employees are just not connecting with one another or there seems to be like not a lot of time to engage, really look at how much time you're allowing team members to connect and shifting some of those meetings that could be shifted to async so that team members then have an opportunity to really connect with one another on a on a meaningful basis.

Joey (00:25:30) - Is there a tool or a piece of technology that you like to kind of help increase the odds of having successful asynchronous communication? I think we use ClickUp is one that we use as kind of like our task management tool. And we use we've talked about Mural, which is a company we both have have some experience with, and we use Miro as another tool. Is there anything outside of those that you guys are using and liking?

Tammy (00:25:54) - Yeah, we actually use ClickUp, and we love ClickUp.

Tammy (00:25:58) - You know, I think, it really depends. I like to say that we're tool-agnostic because as long as you have the processes, mindset, and skills to use a tool effectively, you can use it and still be effective. Like if you just have Google Drive, you can implement a lot of the things that we're talking about here, right? There's no magic tool that's going to make you a successful remote team or hybrid team, right? It really does hinge on the capabilities of the people using the tools. So I don't necessarily like to prescribe specific tools, although, you know, we have the ones that we use, which are ClickUp, Slack, and Mural. But I like to talk about categories of tools. So you do need a messaging tool, right? So I guess some people could use email, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Joey (00:27:03) - Not this guy. Yeah.

Tammy (00:27:06) - You know, some sort of messaging tool, especially one that allows for public and private messaging, so you can adjust the visibility of conversations and information. And then a project management tool, I would say, like ClickUp is really a non-negotiable, even for a one-person shop.

Tammy (00:27:35) - Like, I don't know how people keep track of the things that they have to do without some sort of tool like that. Yeah. And then, you know, if you do collaborate with others, I think a visual collaboration tool like Mural is probably up there in terms of a must-have, just because of the limitations that a linear type of document has when it comes to thinking of different ways to approach problems. And I really like the frameworks that Mural has incorporated into templates to help people think through different problems and questions. So those are some of the big categories, I would say. Yeah. I don't know if that was a non-answer.

Joey (00:28:29) - No, I think you answered it perfectly because you gave people a framework, right? Because ClickUp might not be the right solution for everybody, but that project management-type solution should be right for everybody, I think, too.

Joey (00:28:41) - Yeah. My wife's tax practice that she works in, where they don't use ClickUp but they use something very similar to kind of manage the tasks, and that's made her job as a hybrid, almost fully remote employee at this point, very, very easy to see instantly where her whole team sits, where some of the holes are expectations. So I like that there's at least a framework for folks to think through if they're curious about how they can improve, yeah.

Tammy (00:29:07) - Yeah. And any tool like that is going to provide visibility into work, right, as you said. So, you know, it should alleviate micromanagement if it's used well and if--

Joey (00:29:21) - Gifts.

Tammy (00:29:22) - Are clearly shared, you know. Right. So there's no reason for me to check in on somebody's work if they're, if they're updating their project management tool as I expect them to, ideally, but you know, a lot of the tools that are being developed really can help.

Tammy (00:29:45) - A lot of the problems that come up in virtual work. But again, it comes down to the capability of that person using the tool, and are they able to use it well?

Joey (00:29:58) - So, well, we typically try to end our... We've talked a lot about important business stuff, but we typically like to try to end our shows with some fun questions. And Jody and I did not discuss in advance who was going to come up with the fun question. I've got one in my back pocket, Jody, but I was I wanted to check with you to see if you've got one.

Jody (00:30:17) - You've got one in your back pocket.

Joey (00:30:18) - I've got one in my back pocket.

Jody (00:30:21) - So I would say, I think, you know, we both we've all three spoken with a lot of people over the years, a lot of different jobs that they've had, you know, remote, non-remote brick and mortar, all that kind of stuff. I would say, what's the most unusual job that you've ever had? And Jody, I'm going to start with you on that, the most unusual job you've ever had.

Joey (00:30:47) - Okay. So the most unusual job, I'll say I'll say this is an unusual job for an accountant. So the most unusual job that I had for an accountant later in life was I spent a summer in Wichita, which Jody and I have bonded over our love for Wichita as his daughter lives in Wichita for at least the foreseeable future. When I was in college over summer, I did an internship with a radio station where I was intern Joey answering phone calls and routing stuff through the radio station and doing all that, giving out some ridiculous hot sports takes and just really just having some fun with the local radio show in Wichita. It was a lot of fun.

Jody (00:31:29) - That sounds fun. Yeah. Accounting radio, very non-accountant type answer.

Joey (00:31:31) - Non-accountant type answer. All the rest of my jobs have been very much like, "Oh, this guy's definitely an accountant." So that's probably the one that doesn't fit.

Jody (00:31:42) - Okay, let's hear yours.

Tammy (00:31:44) - So I was on Semester at Sea for a semester, and I was the IT assistant coordinator, so I helped people connect to the internet. This was in 2009, so, you know, we definitely had the internet, but on a cruise ship, it was spotty at best. And like, I think there was a very low number of people that could be connected to the internet at the same time. So my job was helping support people who needed to connect online and helped with the, we had like a little computer lab. And then also we had what were called lifelong learners. So they were mostly students on the ship, but then college-age students. But there were also lifelong learners who were mostly retired professionals. And they came on board, and a significant number of them, one of the reasons that they came on board was they wanted to improve their computer skills. So helping some of the lifelong learners access the internet and use computers. So that was the most unusual, just because there was the first and only time I've ever worked in that capacity.

Tammy (00:32:59) - And also to have the challenges of connectivity on a cruise ship in 2009.

Jody (00:33:08) - Wow.

Tammy (00:33:08) - And then, of course, I got to see the world, which is pretty awesome.

Jody (00:33:11) - Yeah, I was gonna say that would be really cool. Where did you typically go on a cruise ship?

Tammy (00:33:15) - So, on that voyage, we started in Canada and we went to Spain, then Morocco, Ghana, South Africa, Mauritius, India, Vietnam, China, Japan, Hawaii, and then ended in San Diego. It was a pretty awesome way to see the world.

Jody (00:33:36) - Were you able to get off the cruise ship at all or were you on it?

Tammy (00:33:38) - Oh yeah, yeah, I was. You know, the Semester at Sea is usually affiliated with a university, so at that time, it was the University of Virginia. And so they had faculty and staff members from higher education join. And I was, you know, one of those lucky people.

Tammy (00:34:00) - So I got to work on a cruise ship. But yeah, that's my most unique.

Jody (00:34:05) - Yeah, that's definitely a lucky person, man. I definitely went to the wrong school because I didn't have that opportunity.

Tammy (00:34:11) - You could go as a lifelong learner. Anyone can go. Actually, there was this one family, a very young couple probably in their 30s, and they had young kids, and they were part of the Lifelong Learner program. And I was like, "Oh, that's my dream. It's awesome. Just travel the world." Yeah.

Jody (00:34:34) - Yeah. Wow. I'm not going to be able to beat either one of yours. My most unusual job was while I was going, well, actually, a couple of different things. I sold knives while I was in college. That's how I paid my way through college. So I sold knives. But before that, in high school, I shoveled horse manure. So that was my big job, to go to the horse stalls all day long and shovel horse manure. And that was probably the most disgusting job I think I've ever had.

Tammy (00:35:05) - Yeah. Where did you grow up?

Jody (00:35:07) - Indiana. So I, and there's not a ton of ranches and horse ranches there, but I happen to live by one. And that's...

Tammy (00:35:14) - You found the one?

Jody (00:35:15) - Yeah, I found the one at $50 for a day's worth of work. How about that?

Tammy (00:35:20) - You know.

Joey (00:35:21) - Hey, you walked uphill both ways in the snow while you were doing it, Jody.

Jody (00:35:25) - Yeah, it was pretty much had to walk there. Walk there and walk back.

Tammy (00:35:31) - Yeah. And so I imagine that was not your favorite job.

Jody (00:35:34) - Oh, by far, not my favorite job. Yeah. Okay, enough with public accounting, right? Right.

Joey (00:35:46) - Well, Tammy, thanks so much for joining us today. This was a great episode. And I think there's a lot of stuff that our listeners are going to be able to pull from this. And I think there are a few things, even for those of us who have been in the remote world for a long time, can pull from this, like doing a technology audit to make sure, and I'm going to use that audit word again, it's not a bad word in the accounting industry. It's something we do. It's not a bad word, but it just has a very special meaning.

Joey (00:36:08) - I think that's true, just to make sure we're doing everything correctly. So for our listeners who might be looking to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to learn more about you and your practice?

Tammy (00:36:22) - Yeah, so you can find Workplaceless at Workplaceless, and you can find me on LinkedIn. So Tammy and my last name is BJ.

Joey (00:36:33) - Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

Jody (00:36:37) - Thank you.

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