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The Great Resignation (Part 2)

Published by Summit Marketing Team on 13 Oct 2021

The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 47


A sequel to "The Great Resignation". We dive deeper into this global phenomenon, and share experiences and management strategies to help your firm retain talent.

In this episode with Jody Grunden, Zach Montroy, our People, Team and Organizational Strategist and Josh Jeans our People Operations Strategist, we will address this phenomenon and discuss more about the employee retention and rewards.






Jamie Nau: Welcome back to today's podcast. We're doing a sequel podcast, and as with most sequels, no one wants to show up to the theater and be in the movie and be asking a ton of questions because they missed the first one. So, we're going to start with a recap, and we are joined once again by Josh Jeans and Josh is joined by his fellow HR guy here, Zach Montroy. So, we have our two HR people and Jody once again. So, in order to not make you have to go back and listen to the first one, if you haven't already yet, Josh do you want to kind of give us a recap of what we talked about last time?

Josh Jeans: Yeah, absolutely. We really zoned in on recruiting last time, talked about how that environment is changing as of late and particularly in COVID-19, in the last 18, 19 months, how that's changed things. Kind of talked about how a lot of people have more options than they've had before. A lot of people in the last year and a half have really taken a step back to reevaluate, what do they want? And what sort of style of work do they want? Do they want to pivot industries and how, frankly, that's causing a lot of folks will be non-committal in this process and we're still trying to sort through and figure out what do we do to engage with those people, to make sure that they know what they want as they move forward and join them along with that. I'm going to kick it over to Zach and see if you wanted to add any more thoughts on recruiting before we kind of move towards retaining people and rewarding them.

Zach Montroy: Yeah, that you all did a great job with the podcast. I feel like I need some popcorn since you talked about being at the movie. So yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to control, right? You know, 2020, none of us had control over anything. Like we were just white-knuckling it trying to get through the year. I think all of these companies went from, “we can never do our work remotely” to “we have to do our work remotely.” To stay viable, we had to send our workforce to working from home. All of a sudden there's a ton of options, like the economy kind of got more secure and more stable and companies started hiring again. I think for many people looking at the psychology of it, I've got some control over this thing, this aspect of my life, and I want a fresh start. And so we have just seen a lot of people, not leave jobs, but go to jobs like this just seems like a really good opportunity and a great, fresh start and like, I can kind of maybe forget about the pandemic a little bit and move on in the interest--I think that the biggest, most interesting thing that I've seen is we have seen a--I mean, great resignation, yeah, that's this year--we've seen so many people change jobs and yet across the board HR executives are saying we are seeing less job applicants than we have ever seen before in our careers. So we've got this whole group of people moving jobs and people are not applying for jobs. So what does that mean? The entire way that we recruit has changed overnight. We're having to really go out and market ourselves as a good employer and we have won a ton of awards on being a place to work, but we've had to go tell that story and really do way more outreach than we have ever had to do in the past and I'm hearing that across the board. I would say, I mean, if you're listening to this podcast and you go after any of our employees, we will hunt you down. We really will though.

Jody Grunden: We know who you are.

Zach Montroy: Yeah. Great companies are having to go out and tell their story to people and say, “Hey, you know, is this the kind of work that you would be motivated and energized to do? Does joining our team sound like something you'd like?” because we're seeing not a ton of people looking, but a lot of people moving. That sort of outreach has become more and more important these days.

Jody Grunden: I guess my question is on--now that we've kind of talked a lot about the recruiting side, rewards are kind of the big topic. How do you reward your people? What are the different types of rewards that you can give to people to keep them on the team because rewards and retention kind of go one on one for a lot of ways. Again, not everybody's motivated by money. Actually, there's a lot of studies saying hardly anybody's motivated by money, which for a lot of us owners that kind of astounds us a little bit. You kind of think back and say, “Why wouldn't you be? Why would you work?” You know, that type of thing. So if you could kind of either one of you, Josh or Zach, if you kind of hit on the ideas of why do people stay at their jobs? What's the number one reason they stay at their jobs? And if, if there's any cork in that that's causing them to leave, how can we reward them or keep them on the team?

Zach Montroy: Yeah. Josh, do you want to take a stab at that first?

Jody Grunden: Chicken.

Josh Jeans: Yeah, for sure. Well, I think Jody, what you said is true that I think kind of an old adage of “if you just pay somebody more, they'll stay and they'll stay forever if you keep incrementally paying them more and more” is not true. We have to face the reality that people work for money. People don't show up to work because it feels like a family and because they love what they're doing. We hope those things follow and that the culture pieces follow and all the non-compensation reasons that somebody would stay come in line. But I think we have to kind of hit the nail on the head and acknowledge that compensation is really critical. For us here at Summit, we want to make sure that we are at or above the industry norm and the way that we compensate people. I think that does go beyond just what we're paying them. There’s been a couple--I don't know how you would articulate this--maybe LinkedIn influencers who've been sharing this poll. It basically says, “Would you rather make a salary of $120,000 or would you rather make a salary of $90,000?” and lists like 10 crazy benefits, like free childcare, 401k matching, free health insurance, dental, life [insurance], $50 a month to your favorite charity, your Spotify, all these things. People just overwhelmingly choose that Option B, that smaller salary, but it's got all these other benefits. I think that's because those extra benefits are a nod to the culture of the company you're coming to and that we want to see you not just as an employee, a warm body who sits in a seat who does the job and we give you this many dollars, but we also want to be thinking about what's your family situation? What sort of nonprofits are you passionate about? Do you care about--what sort of playlist do you keep on Spotify? There's lots of other parts of life that we want to engage with besides somebody's income. I think we do have to face that, but you're right that that's not the whole story anymore how it may have been in the past.

Jody Grunden: How big do you think that story is though?

Josh Jeans: Say it again.

Jody Grunden: How big is that story though? So how important is the wage? Would they have done it for $80,000 in your scenario? I mean, at $70,000? How do you find that hot number? I guess that number that’s going to keep somebody.

Josh Jeans: That's a great question. I think it really is going to depend on the individual and it's part of why we're seeing people slowly, make--we have a lot of people making moves, but like Zach said, we have very few people applying. So if you think about how does that math work out, it means that people used to have to apply to 25 jobs before they got an offer. Now they're applying to maybe 5 or 10, and they're sending out less applications. But really, I think what we see is nobody wants to make a backwards move when it comes to their income, there would have to be some other really large circumstances involved. Maybe for some people that is, at a place like Summit, the opportunity to work remote. Somebody might be willing to take a lesser salary because they just got two and a half hours a day back in their life from their commutes and all the expenses that are associated with that. So, from what I'm seeing, I think that is pretty highly individualized and I hear that a lot kind of as I'm screening people and talking through what are your expectations. Really, people don't want to move backwards. I think people are even open to a lateral move as long as they see a path forward to continue to grow, but nobody wants to go backwards.

Jamie Nau: Yeah, I was going to ask there real quick is--so one thing I heard and I'm not sure if Jody remembers this, we were at a conference and there was an HR person and he mentioned that one of the ways to creatively pay people is to actually personalize it. The example he used is, let's say Employee A loves a certain band and that band has a huge concert every year in Chicago. To pay for that person to go to the concert, pay for the hotel, put them up for a couple of nights, and pay for their spouse, that might cost $4,000. An employee would value that a lot more than a $10,000 bonus. What are your guys' thoughts on that theory and if you think that's true.

Josh Jeans: Zach, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Zach Montroy: Yeah, I think there can be some good in that. Obviously, I'm not a tax guy, you gotta be careful of the legal ramifications from gifting and all of that. But the one thing you have to watch out for there is equity and making sure that you are not--and the reason I say that is I've seen some owners of businesses like, “This person's my favorite person on the team and so I go do this for that person” and then there's all these other people that you haven't done anything for. You’re going to create a different problem there. But I also think personalized gifts can be very, very important and I would say that is something Summit does extraordinarily well. Like on your anniversary, you're getting chocolate. I mean, honestly, my kids see something from Summit CPA come in the mail and, I won't lie, on my birthday I was like, “No one check the mail. No one is allowed to check the mail,” because I knew there were going to be some yummy candies, but I didn't want to share. So I think like that can be a good thing. Make sure that you do it well, would be my HR caveat that I would give to that. But I think in the personalizing pay category there as well, everyone is working from--not everyone--most companies have a remote or flexible option now. So that is not nearly as much of a benefit that we're able to tout there. But I'll tell you one thing that is: our education stipend and our remote work stipends. We have all these companies out there right now who are asking people to work from home and there's expenses that you incur as part of that. We've been, I mean, Jody, Adam, Jay, we've been doing this for years where we give you money and say, “Hey, if you want to pay your cell phone bill or your internet bill or buy a new desk this money is for you to build that office.” Knowing that you're going to have some expenses there and if you want to go on a trip for an education conference, awesome. We're giving you flexibility. I think that is one of the biggest benefits you can give people right now is flexibility and options. I think that that's been a huge advantage for us.

Jody Grunden: Can you elaborate, Jamie, more on that? On the two stipends?

Jamie Nau: Yeah. One of the things we do for all of our employees, to Zach's point, we do have two stipends that get put onto a PEX card. It's a card that you have in your wallet and you can use it when you have either education costs or technology needs. Again, we don't sit there and tell people what they need, which I think is the best part about it, right? I think it goes back to the personalization. Some people really want to have a standing desk and they always wanted it at their previous office and they had to jump through all these holes to get it and all these loops to get it. “Aw man, it took me six months to get that standing desk.” Where if you're at Summit and you're at Costco and you see a standing desk for 200 bucks, you just pull out the right card and you buy the standing desk and walk home with it. I think that's what is great about it is it is personalized. I think if you went to each single person at Summit and asked what they use their card for everybody to have a different answer, but they'd all be extremely satisfied with what they're using it for.

Jody Grunden: It kind of prevents them from having to wait in line or ask about the chair, right?

Zach Montory: Bureaucracy there too, right?

Jody Grunden: Yeah, and the nice thing about it is kind of the side effect is that it relieves a lot of administrative issues. We try to run the company on less administration--a small administrative team, and that's just one less thing that administrative person has to worry about, ordering desks, handling disputes between people, why someone's got this color chair versus that color chair, whatever it might be. It eliminates a lot of that, which is pretty cool. David, do you know how much our tech stipend is? We broadly call it “tech stipend” because, as Jamie mentioned, it can be used for technology or really anything office wise. It can be used for a chair. It can be used for desk like Jamie mentioned. It can be used for really whatever.

Jamie Nau: I believe it's 3,000 a year, isn't it? Isn't that the education? I always get education and tech confused, but I think they're both similar in that amount for 3,000 a year.

Jody Grunden: Yeah, and then with the education stipend, Jamie, how does that work?

Jamie Nau: Yeah, same thing. I have a card that I use and the great thing about that again, is the flexibility of it. A lot of people will get together and they'll go to a conference together and they’ll say, “Okay, this is a topic we want to learn about, we really want to learn about ESOPs and there's an ESOP conference in Tampa. Let's go together down to Tampa.” Then three or four of us go and hang out and then use that card for the conference and really enjoy the lectures. You'd have to get a lot more approvals at another firm, especially in the CPA world and so I think that's part of it. But also, I use it for my Audible membership. I have an Audible account that I use my education [stipend] for, so that way I don’t have to think about it every time I buy a book. I'm like, “Okay, I just add it to my Audible account” and that goes to my tech stipend. A lot of people use it for different things. Again, I know I've always been a library guy, so it's just easier to go to the library and wait for books, but sometimes you have to kind of wait those four months or five months for the newer ones to come on. If I need to buy a book, I just put it on my PEX card and then it's in the mail [from] Amazon two days later. I think that's the nice thing about the tech one--or the education one, sorry.

Jody Grunden: Yeah, no, I completely agree, and it kind of forces people to actually be grownups, right? Hey, if you want to go somewhere, great, just save your money up for it and you can go there because we don't just plop it all on one day and then they use it. We give them a monthly stipend, right? So it's a monthly thing. It's a PEX card--it adds value to the PEX card and they can zap it all down in one day. But again, if that one opportunity does come up, they're not going be able to go unless they pay for it out of pocket. That’s the nice thing about it, right? It gives them the ability to make choices, which I think is a huge perk for sure.

Josh Jeans: So, something that I think, Jamie and Jody, you guys are both kind of circling around here with the flexibility of that--and I liked what you said, Jody, “People have to be a grownup”--is those sort of benefits, and this kind of bleeds into retention for people, it gives people autonomy and people love autonomy, especially in a remote distributed environment. It's a way that we can communicate trust to somebody to say, “We trust you to be A, an adult, B, a responsible employee and see to pursue the things that are good for you to make you, or to allow you and empower you to make a better contribution here and a fuller contribution to your team. I think people really experience that as, “Oh, my employer or maybe my direct manager or my company culture at large is really expressing trust in me to do what I need to do. I'm not being micromanaged in that--like you said, there's no bureaucracy of I've been in my red chair for two years and I really want the blue chair because the blue chairs are the newer models. People have the choice and you can decide to buy that chair right now or you may need to wait a couple months and you can get an even nicer one as you've waited for more money to come in. But I do think one of the pieces of retaining people is giving them autonomy. There's various ways that we can do that between giving them flexible hours and saying like, “Hey, get your work done.” We're not going to make sure that you're logged in from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM every day. We're going to make sure that you get your tasks done and they're done well. Or spend your money on what you want to, you and your team and your manager are going to know what sort of education that you need and what sort of training you need to sharpen in your craft. So go do that. You don't have a prescribed, here's all the things that you have to do in year one at Summit and year two at Summit, but we give that trust to people.

Jamie Nau: I think that as a firm that's all over the U.S., the one thing that really I've appreciated is the way we handle those working hours, right? I think what we've always communicated to employees, and again, I'm in the mountain time zone, so I'm a couple hours behind everybody on this call, but like one of the things that I communicate, and I know that people sit in similar time zones to me communicate, is these are the hours I plan on working. For me, it's nine to five on a weekday. Like, “hey, these hours I'll be around, but if you need to get me at 7:00 AM, just give me some heads up.” The worst thing that happens to me is I'll go into my office the night before and just kind of wrap up some emails and stuff and it's nine o'clock at night and I found out, oh, Jody, just added a 7:00 AM meeting for me tomorrow morning. That's the hard part is it's the night before and I find it. I think that's the kind of stuff that we really pride ourselves on. Is that okay? I understand that Jamie's schedule is this, but if I give him a couple days heads up he's going to come in for that seven o'clock meeting if he needs to. I think that's the way we've always communicated is make sure the people you work with know when you're around, know the hours you're going to be working. But if a client or someone internally needs you outside those hours, you gotta be flexible. I think that people appreciate that when it comes to those working hours, especially as you're all over the U.S.

Zach Montroy: Yeah. I think that goes back to like--

Jody Grunden: Yeah, good point, and when schedule is probably--

Zach Montroy: Sorry. Go ahead, Jody.

Jody Grunden: Yeah, I think managing schedules is kind of a huge broker--a huge thing people have because, for instance, with my schedule, I always block off--my schedule is completely blocked off with all my workout times [for] the whole year. I get every workout time through the whole year there. But, as Jamie mentioned, it's not rigid in the event that he needs to meet with me and that's really the only time we have available. Then he knows that he can schedule time over that and just not the day before, but maybe next week and a couple of days out. That way, I've got a chance to actually redo my personal schedule too. Obviously there's certain things we can't change, like taking the kids to school and stuff like that. People mark that on their calendar that way: “Hey, running the kids to school.” You think as the owner of a company I'm going to trump Jamie and say, “Hey, Jamie, you can't take your kids to school because I'm more important than that”? That doesn't happen. That's not going to happen. That's that kind of freedom the schedule gives, but in the same respect, that freedom's great and the scheduling is awesome, but it still means you work, right?

Zach Montory: Yes, and I think that all goes back to, and you think, I mean, from a rewards and retention standpoint, I mean, go back to Psychology 101, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The most basic needs we have as employees are to understand what's expected of us and do we have the tools to do our jobs well. So, fundamentally, if we want to get to people really functioning well, we've got to make sure that those needs are met. Going back to what you said, Jamie, we're a service-based business. A client on the west coast means I might have to have late meetings on Thursday afternoons, but it means that I'm coming in late on a Thursday or I'm flexing time on a Friday. That's an expectation. You learn control of your calendar. At the end of the day, we are about serving our clients, but if you're three or four time zones off from a client we do not expect you to be working at 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM day. We do not want that. That's not an expectation. What is an expectation is that you're working a 40-hour week and you're getting your deliverables done. We're both providing that flexibility, but also that fundamental, basic need of understanding what's expected of me and my job and how that's lived out in the role.

Jody Grunden: I think that's super, super important because again, somebody working in this kind of flexible environment and again, a perk to it is that flexibility, but it can also be to the detriment of the person. If they're not a type of person that can say no, they may end up working a ton more time. They may end up working 40 hours and then plus another 20 hours on top of that because they're weeding in all this extra time. I think that flexibility has got to come with the idea that, hey, I've got to control my schedule. I've got to be able to say no or I got to be able to work out things so that I don't work a long schedule because again, it can be easily misinterpreted, easily happen if that person's not careful with it. Which kind of gets to the other thing about having the ability to delegate tasks to other folks on the team, have the ability to say no to somebody, have the ability to say, “Hey, I can do it here. Here's my schedule, I can do it at this time.” Kind of get permission to. There's gotta be that conversation, that ability to delegate, that ability to work around a calendar, I think are really-- a lot of key areas that in order for it to be a benefit that person really has to take advantage of.

Zach Montroy: Jody, you tweeted out an article today on why time-tracking is so important. I think going back to the recognition part, we have this ability to recognize when someone put in a 60- or 70- or 80-hour work week. Jamie, you get those reports. What happens for you? How do you recognize there's a red flag here? What do you do? Because I think that's a key part of recognition from an employer perspective.

Jody Grunden: Before you answer that Jamie, you and I both worked in public accounting, the bigger firms.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jody Grunden: It was a badge of honor to get 60 to 70 hours a week. Everybody treated that as, hey, let's see who can get the most hours in and let's brag about it. That wasn't me, just to let you know. But with that perspective and kind of adding to Zach's question, how does that differ?

Jamie Nau: Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, Jody. That's exactly the road I was going to go down is, yeah, we look at it the opposite of a lot of CPA firms. A lot of CPA firms, especially during busy season, have those hours expectations and you'll-- people will be in the lunchroom talking about, “Yeah, I put in a 90 last week” and flexing. “Yeah, I just put in a 90-hour weekly cost,” but it's kind of the opposite here and I keep an eye on those hours reports and if a person puts in a 150-hour week, I'm not going to think twice about it. But if I start seeing them strung together, even if I see like a 50 or 40 and then a 55 and a 60, I kind of see them grouping together like that, then I'm definitely going to jump in. I think the first thing to me is communication. I think that talking to them is the most important thing and I try not to go in empty handed. I try to go in with some information. If I'm going to talk to--let’s pretend like Josh is a senior accountant who just put in three 50-hour weeks in a row--I'm going to go in there and I'm going to see, okay, which clients do you put the work into? How many clients does he have? What's his book of business? What are the things he's working on? That's the questions I'm going to ask. To Jody's point earlier, is if Josh is working 55 hour weeks but he’s doing a bunch of stuff that he should have delegated, then that's where I want that conversation to go is to be like, okay, why are you spending time doing bank recs? You have someone for you that can do those bank recs. Then, you know, most people are going to come back with, well, these are more complicated bank recs. Then I’m going to have to go into that question like, okay, what makes them more complicated and why can't we get them delegated? I think that's the key to me is one, come in prepared--understand what's causing them to work more hours, but then two is just listen. I think that's really the key to management when it comes to this is listen to what they're telling you is causing them the hours and then react to that. So again, it's kind of twofold there. I've definitely had a lot of those conversations because we don't want people getting burnt out. I think that's part of the retention is we want people to not get burnt out, but we also want them to handle an appropriate book too. The first thing I'm not going to go in there and be like, “Oh, Josh, you just worked through 55 hour weeks. Can I take away two clients from you?” I don't go in with that as the answer right away.

Zach Montroy: That’s good. I think going back to that pyramid of needs from an employee, how do you keep great employees basic needs? Then, from an individual perspective, are we giving good and clear candid feedback? Are we encouraging people's development? Are we recognizing the good work that they do in an individual way, so that we're connecting their work to the mission of the organization? And to the clients that we work on, do they feel like they're a part of a team? Are they connected with people on the team? Do they know that their job is important and critical? Do their opinions count? Then from a growth perspective, is someone talking to them about their progress? Do they have--you know, growth comes at the edge. Are there opportunities for them to work and learn and grow through that work? Those are the people who are most engaged. Those are the people who don't leave organizations for the shiny $500 bonus. Those are the people who are in it. Those are big alerts to us. When people are not connected, they don't have a friend at work. Gallup found that that was a huge piece of retention. The employees who stay have a good friend in the workplace, and that has been challenging for us being remote because we weren't able to have a retreat last year. That's a huge connection piece for us to get to know and become friends with one another because you have to be so intentional about that over Zoom. Those are the things that we have to get creative and brainstorm and try and fail forward on. But when you think about the most engaged employees, you've got to work from basic needs through their individual team needs and challenging their growth.

Jamie: Great. We are actually almost at time here, so I'm going to give you guys a chance. I know this is hard and this is a big area of rewards and retention, but I'm gonna give each of you--number one thing you can do to keep your employees longer. I'm going to start with you, Jody. What would you say? The number one thing you could do to keep employees at your company longer?

Jody Grunden: I think the biggest thing is just kind of show that you care more about them than maybe the bottom line--you have a vested interest in them. Well, one of the big things that we took an initiative for--it's been four or five, six years ago, I don't know how long Zach you've been here--but we brought Zach on to address that, so that, hey, they've got somebody on their side that they can consult to if Jamie is a jerk then we need to figure out how to communicate better with Jamie or how can we communicate better with the client? I think that was huge. I would like in your answers, Josh and Zach, if you could kind of tell us a little bit about what you do with the clients--or not with the clients, but with the team members to make them feel that, hey, you are a benefit, you are someone that they can lean on when they need to.

Jamie Nau: Alright, Josh. Since you've been here a little less time than Zach I’m going to throw it over to you first.

Josh Jeans: Yeah, I think I really agree with what you said, Jody. My thought was maybe, as cheeky as it is, you have to walk the walk and talk the talk. I think, Jamie, what you were getting at earlier, if a leader in the organization sees that somebody on their team is consistently overextending themselves we've got to come in. You can't only address somebody when they're working 30-hour weeks and never address them when they're working consistent 50-hour weeks. I think the temptation is to think, “Well, I'm getting a lot of work and productivity out of this person, so I'm going to kind of just leave them to do their thing.” But that starts to communicate over time that we think of people as resources to be used up and not people to be partnered with and developed and moved forward. I think it really is engaging with people both when they are not doing well and that can be a variety of things. We had several people on our team here who've been in the path of hurricanes in the last month, and part of engaging with them is me pulling them aside and saying, “How is your family? I know you have a lot of audits to do or you have a lot of bank recs to work on, but are you okay? Do you guys have power?” and realizing, oh, we have people that have like 15 family members who have evacuated and are staying in their home and they're trying to work remote from home. Just acknowledging your productivity is probably gonna drop this week as you're working from home and also preparing meals for three other families that are staying with you. But I think a lot of it is seeing people when things are really hard and also seeing when they're excelling to know that maybe we need to put some bumpers on this to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand and you don't burn out and kind of quietly start to think about other options because you're being so used up in your position.

Jamie Nau: I think your point was perfect because I think the other part of it too, is it needs to be personalized as well. There are certain people that take pride in delegating and moving their job. If I see those people start creeping over 40 hours, I start to get concerned, right? Because they've worked really hard over the last three years to get all their work delegated and they've been putting in 40 hours a week consistently for six months, and now I see 42, 45, 48, obviously something's changed in their schedule and I know that because I know that person. Then there's some people that it's just in their nature. They're going to work 55 no matter what, they just love it. They love their job, they're willing to do that, they're willing to put in 55. You have to just know your people a little better and know your people personally because what works for one person isn't the same. You have to make sure you keep an eye on each person individually. Alright, Zach, last but not least.

Zach Montroy: Man, thank you for giving me all this time to come up and I hope it’s a good answer with all the time I've had. But no, I love Jody and Josh. Those were great answers. I would say you have got to understand, like talking about personalization, understand everyone on your team's unique ability and best and highest contribution and put that to work. Create a place where they can make a meaningful contribution given their motivations and their unique abilities. If I am getting to use my unique ability and giftedness on a daily basis, I'm going to love the work that I do. I'm going to be energized by that. I'm going to end the day wanting to do more and we should. But, again, healthy boundaries are good, but that's the best and most meaningful workplace. So that's what we want to create. We want to create a place where people can make that contribution and we understand what their unique ability is to that contribution and, Jody, kind of going back to your question. I'm an Enneagram 8, a Challenger, and I think that the best contribution that I provide is really changing our team with empathy and care, to say the soft skill side, the human skill side of consulting of leading really matters. How we connect with people really matters. I'm gonna be in the arena with you--to use that Theodore Roosevelt quote--I'm going to be in the arena with you to challenge you and to cheer you on and to pick you up when you make a mistake and fail and fail forward and help you back up and challenge you to get back in the arena again. Because the work we do is hard, but it's also really meaningful. I think having a person to process that with is important. I think that investment has been really integral to a lot of our CFO's success. But also, we connect it back into the work that we get to contribute at every day.

Jamie Nau: I think that's a great way to end this podcast. You may have even opened a can of worms for another podcast about how to help people identify what does make them tick. I know we worked on that at our last retreat, so maybe that'd be a good podcast we could bring you on for in the future because I know that was something that I enjoyed learning and definitely learned a lot about myself when we did that. I appreciate all you guys. Thanks for coming on. I think, again, this was a great sequel, so no letdowns here. Appreciate it.


The Great Resignation (Part 2)


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